C4 in place of C3?

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Looking at Lubrizol's spider chart it would appear C4 covers C3 and only differs in exhuast after treatment compatability. That makes sence as C4 is essentially a lower Saps version of C3. I can't help but think it will not protect as well but thats not what the specs state.

So would a C4 oil work just as well as C3 in a C4 application? I realise the oil change interval may have to be lower.
 
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.
 
I would think the engine would have to be designed for C4 since it requires lower levels of Phosphorus. On plus side NOAK must be under 11 vs 13 for C3.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

Very interesting.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.

C3 isn't exactly low SAPS. C4 is.

Well, I did not take a look at limits. I know M1 ESP is considered low-saps but meets C3.
 
Are you saying you used M1 ESP 5w-30 for 450K km in that Peugeot?

In any case, the guy wasn't saying that the engine would die at 200K miles. Only that there would be measurable wear that would result in less than optimal compression leading to loss of performance and oil consumption.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are you saying you used M1 ESP 5w-30 for 450K km in that Peugeot?

In any case, the guy wasn't saying that the engine would die at 200K miles. Only that there would be measurable wear that would result in less than optimal compression leading to loss of performance and oil consumption.

No, we used Total Ineo C3 5W30. I think it is 0.8% SA.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.


The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?
 
The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?

[/quote]

It's the injector seals that cause the problem. They leak, allowing combustion soot into the oil circuit which then clogs up the oil ways to the turbo as well as destroying the turbo bearings. It's really difficult to clean the carbon out of the engine as well so people change the turbo and then the new one fails as well. It seems to be more common on Fords than the other cars that engine is fitted to.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.


The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?


hmm, among Pug guys in Bosnia, 1.6hdi has status of uber-engine. Most of the problems they were facing with was 2.0hdi. This engine literally never had any issues except regular maintenance.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
I would think the engine would have to be designed for C4 since it requires lower levels of Phosphorus. On plus side NOAK must be under 11 vs 13 for C3.



The main differences between C3 and C4 (in the current 2012 sequences) are:

- Noack: C3 13% max, C4 11% max
- sulphur: C3 0.3% max, C4 0.2% max
- phosphorus: BOTH are 900ppm max, but C3 has a 700ppm minimum
- sulphated ash: C3 0.8% max, C4 0.5% max

All engine testing parameters, which includes tests for piston cleanliness, viscosity increase, oil consumption, sludge, valve train wear and cylinder wear in both gasoline and diesel engines are identical. The main engine wear test (OM646LA) has exactly the same pass limits as for A3/B4 and A5/B5.

There's no way you can say that C3 oils will outperform C4, because firstly they shouldn't be in the same engines and secondly there will be some C4 oils better than others, so a good C4 will outperform an average C3.

Horses for courses, as we say on this little island.
 
I just want to resurrect this topic with the request for advice.
We have a Nissan / Renault engine 1.5 DCI and a VAG 2.0 TDI 170 both from 2014. The nissan oil spec in the car's manual is C4, whereas many suppliers only list the engine as Renault RN0720 and the VAG is VW507.
I am looking for an oil I could use on both but have considered the VW507. It is only a C3 spec from most manufacturers, but if I cross reference them on e.g. the MB oils the Nissan comes up with MB226.51 and the VW507 comes up with MB229.51.

Now would a MB229.51 supersede and cover a MB226.51, i.e. can I put the VW507 into a Nissan Note 1.5DCI?
 
I have a 2016 Dacia Duster 1.5DCi for my Wife with the same engine. I know the 1.5DCi was previously specc'd for ACEA C3, the service guide I have for ours actually says to use a 5w30 or 5w40 ACEA C3 oil which I was surprised at because all the other information I have found has suggested using a C4 oil.

Yes, a ACEA C3 oil will be perfectly fine in your Note. In fact as said before it will offer better protection.

Once out of warranty I will probably look to run a fully synthetic HDEO, probably a 5w40. I'm gutted nobody seems to sell Amsoil HDEO's in the UK. I'd like to run Amsoil SS Max Life Diesel 5w40.
 
MB226.51 is a rebrand of the RN0720 spec for where MB use Renault engines (but don't want to put a Renault spec in their handbooks). They are built off of the ACEA C4 spec as a baseline. MB229.51 does not 'supersede' 226.51, it is for different applications.

VW 507 00 is built off of ACEA C3, so in basic terms has the same HTHS but a higher maximum SAPS limit.

If you're following the handbook requirements, there is no oil that could cover both uses as their specification requirements are divergent. However, if you are not worried about following handbooks or preserving any warranties then the safer approach would be to use the higher SAPS oil (VW 507 00/MB 229.51/ACEA C3) across both, rather than putting the ACEA C4/RN0720/MB226.51-type oil in the VW engine.

Theoretical reasons for not doing this would be faster DPF blocking in the Renault/Nissan, but this depends on a lot of other factors too.
 
I would be comfortable using VW507 in both. VW507 lubes typically have very low SA for a C3 lube. There is a minor risk it will affect the DPF or shorten the life of it.
 
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