PL14477 Autopsy

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Failure rate on these is very high at over 5k miles it seems.

It doesn't look like they're built well enough to go over 3,000 miles.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
It doesn't look like they're built well enough to go over 3,000 miles.

That seems at odds with both the data available and long experience with the brand.

 

[SwedishRider]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Failure rate on these is very high at over 5k miles it seems.

It doesn't look like they're built well enough to go over 3,000 miles.


I planned to run mine for 5K miles. If I end up going that far with it, I'll cut it open and see what it looks like. It'll be a while though... I just put it on a short while ago.

Either way, I have a NAPA Gold on the shelf waiting to take its place.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Why don't you just take the oil filter off your car and plate off the mount because apparently in your mind it doesn't matter if you filter the oil or not.

Since I have not said that, it would appear you've run out of anything worth saying.


Keep grasping.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.


This hole in the media surely couldn't have any effect on the filtering performance of the filter.

Anyone with any technical logic would know a hole this size will pass WAY more unfiltered oil in 5,000 miles than the bypass valve would while opening rarely over 5,000 miles. Plus there was a similar hole on the other end of the pleat. Yeah, just a "trivial" tear or two.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.

Those are those the facts.


Yeah, and how do you know when that tear occurred? Was it at mile 1 or at mile 5,000? Where's that fact?

And where's your fact and proof that some of that torn media didn't go down into the engine. Can you account for every free fiber on the torn edge and if it dislodged or not? No.

 

[Merkava_4]

ZeeOSix,

Which filter would you rather run:

A Purolator with torn media...

or a NAPA Platinum with huge gaping holes that let 20 micron size particles thru ?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
ZeeOSix,

Which filter would you rather run:

A Purolator with torn media...

or a NAPA Platinum with huge gaping holes that let 20 micron size particles thru ?

Pretty much a toss up there.

But would still choose the NAPA Platinum because passing 20 micron particles is better than possibly passing 2 mm particles through a large gaping hole.

 

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Why don't you just take the oil filter off your car and plate off the mount because apparently in your mind it doesn't matter if you filter the oil or not.

Since I have not said that, it would appear you've run out of anything worth saying.

The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.

Those are those the facts.




Simply stating that things are facts does not make them facts. You say a lot of things that are pure conjecture here. There is no evidentiary basis for any of your statements.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Yeah, I am itching to take the P1 off the Subaru, only 400 miles to go before I hit 3K and heck, it is coming off and getting cut open.


Subarus typically have pretty high volume oil pumps, so those engines will definitely test the media's integrity against tearing. Is it a high set bypass valve P1 for the Subaru applications?


Yes. The Purolator is one of the few that specs to my Outbacks model (20PSI+). Wix has a filter that meets it but it not listed as a compliant model for my car... but I will be running it as it is listed for other years of the same engine... it seems like it was a WIX classification error.


Hey, Wilhelm_D, my filter was allowing unfilter oil to circulate in my engine.... you know, the single job that is was designed to do. Fluid dynamics will dictate that the fluid (oil) will see the path of least resistance... thus a gap, any gap (especially FOUR gaps) will allow more fluid past that will make it through the filter. Think of it as a condom... it only takes a small hole to make the whole thing useless.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D


The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.




+1...Well put, sir.

 

[cronk]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

Apparently you don't understand, and don't want to understand, the difference between a failure - examples of which I provided - and a defect which does not appear to represent any significant threat to either the engine or the oil.

This anti-Purolator crusade reminds me of the anti-Mobil 1 crusade that overran BITOG a few years ago.








The definition from the dictionary of a failure
1:nonperformance of something due, required, or expected.
2:a subnormal quantity or quality; an insufficiency.

I think most people EXPECT an oil filter, to do as its name implies and filter the oil.
A small hole in the media will flow more oil than you think. The oil will travel the path of least resistance.
No brand is perfect, and have used many myself. When i dissected a Purolator Classic from my brothers car and saw, with my own eyes, a torn media pleat, I got concerned. When dozens of others posted similar pictures, I decided to stay away from them until they get their act together.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D


The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.




+1...Well put, sir.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D


The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.




+1...Well put, sir.

Well, I do have a sample of the oil from my failed filter that I have not sent in yet... but a sample might not collect the bits that the filter lets though as they test items suspended/dissolved in the oil... not the giant chunks that settle to the bottom or get move past the failed filter. I could easily get a 200mg Advil Pill past my oil filter tear... FOUR of them actually at the same time. I guess I need to send that sample in...

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D


The small tears in the filter media should have no material effect on the filtration. They are miniscule in comparison to the oil that goes through the bypass, and miniscule in relation to the total filter media area.

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.




+1...Well put, sir.

The Wilhelm_D / SilverC6 alliance. Has a nice ring to it.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Hey, Wilhelm_D, my filter was allowing unfilter oil to circulate in my engine.... you know, the single job that is was designed to do.

Hey, FutureDoc, every full flow filter that you buy either has a bypass built into it or has one in the engine, and so every full flow filter that you buy allows unfiltered oil to circulate in your engine.

Think about it. No, actually think.

Given the volume of oil that goes through the filter, these tiny tears allow a nominal amount of oil through, with the largest portion going through the media when the bypass is closed, or the bypass when open. That's a defect, but it's not a catastrophe.

It's also not malevolent, designed in, or characteristic of the brand over the years.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Four large holes in the media will be bypassing oil 100% of the time, while a bypass valve which rarely opens except under extreme conditions will probably only bypass 1/100000th of the volume of oil that is bypassed by gaping holes in the media over the use span of the filter.

A bypass valve in not designed to be open 100% of the time, and either are gaping holes in the media.

 

[Sam2000]

Here's a thought.

Didn't Walmart recently start stocking Purolators?

I wonder if Purolator had to hit a price point and this is the result?

And didn't the price of Motorcrafts rise?

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Four large holes in the media will be bypassing oil 100% of the time, ...

Slits, not holes, narrow, not large.

Quote:
.... while a bypass valve which rarely opens except under extreme conditions ....

Apparently you haven't actually worked in this area. Bypass valves open all the time - cold starts, acceleration, and so on.

You're apparently operating under the misconception that full flow filters filter 100% of the oil going through the filter 99% of the time.

Quote:
.... and either are gaping holes in the media.

These are slits, not "gaping holes".

This over-the-top emotional mischaracterization of the actual data IMHO is reprehensible.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Hey, Wilhelm_D, my filter was allowing unfilter oil to circulate in my engine.... you know, the single job that is was designed to do.

Hey, FutureDoc, every full flow filter that you buy either has a bypass built into it or has one in the engine, and so every full flow filter that you buy allows unfiltered oil to circulate in your engine.

Think about it. No, actually think.

Given the volume of oil that goes through the filter, these tiny tears allow a nominal amount of oil through, with the largest portion going through the media when the bypass is closed, or the bypass when open. That's a defect, but it's not a catastrophe.

It's also not malevolent, designed in, or characteristic of the brand over the years.


This is not a tiny tear. This would basically render the filter as being... well not filtering.

Yes, but my bypass setting is above 20PSI. With a filter media rupture, it is basically zero. I bought a Purolator because unlike other filters speced for the subaru which only have a bypass of 8-12psi. The bypass is a "safety feature" not a normal operating feature. It is designed to kick in so that the oil filter does not cause a issue by blocking oil in certain conditions. If a bypass filter get stuck "on", the yeah, it is a failure just like if the media failed. I paid for a filter with a bypass spec of over 20spi, if the media ruptures, that spec is no longer valid.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

I have already noted an actual oil analysis from a vehicle the Purolator made filter of which exhibited these tears, an oil analysis which indicated NO effect from the tears on particulates or engine wear.

Those are those the facts.



I'll preface this by saying that I don't think the tears are a big deal. A small % of the oil being unfiltered just isn't going to matter much, since it's going to all be filtered eventually (it's not like the same oil is continually getting past the tear). That said, I don't think I'd hang my hat on a UOA to determine an oil filter's effectiveness, particularly one that doesn't have a particle count.

The other issue is that while the tear really isn't a big deal, 1) the tears seem to be more than just isolated incidents (a fair number of tears on a small number of filters opened) and 2) you have to put something on your engine. So, all else equal I'd prefer something that hasn't demonstrated this number of tears, even if it's just anecdotal.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it or go changing my freshly installed oil filter--I think that's silly; but I wouldn't go out my way to buy one, either (and I don't-I'm sticking to wire-back filters anyway because I use filters for a long time and it just seems like a more robust design all the way around).

 

[Keto]

Tears can happen in any manufacturers filter media, and they do happen

I seen more used Fram PH6018's and PH7317's with gaping holes in the media than I have the # of Purolators here.

Better the WCOTN (White Can Of Temporary Nausea) than the OCOD.


K