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#3350439 - 04/22/14 07:17 PM C4 in place of C3?
supercity Offline


Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 1141
Loc: Australia
Looking at Lubrizol's spider chart it would appear C4 covers C3 and only differs in exhuast after treatment compatability. That makes sence as C4 is essentially a lower Saps version of C3. I can't help but think it will not protect as well but thats not what the specs state.

So would a C4 oil work just as well as C3 in a C4 application? I realise the oil change interval may have to be lower.

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#3350478 - 04/22/14 07:54 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: supercity]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35561
Loc: Great Lakes
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.
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#3350515 - 04/22/14 08:24 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: supercity]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1823
Loc: Atlanta,GA
I would think the engine would have to be designed for C4 since it requires lower levels of Phosphorus. On plus side NOAK must be under 11 vs 13 for C3.
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#3350525 - 04/22/14 08:35 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: Quattro Pete]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4662
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

Very interesting.

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#3350599 - 04/22/14 09:33 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4840
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.
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#3350802 - 04/23/14 06:46 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: edyvw]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35561
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: edyvw
C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.

C3 isn't exactly low SAPS. C4 is.
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#3350957 - 04/23/14 10:03 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4840
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.

C3 isn't exactly low SAPS. C4 is.

Well, I did not take a look at limits. I know M1 ESP is considered low-saps but meets C3.
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#3350968 - 04/23/14 10:11 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: supercity]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35561
Loc: Great Lakes
C3 has an SA limit of 0.8%.
C4 has an SA limit of 0.5%.
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#3350996 - 04/23/14 10:30 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4840
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
C3 has an SA limit of 0.8%.
C4 has an SA limit of 0.5%.

Oh well, I think M1 is 06%.
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#3351032 - 04/23/14 11:24 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: supercity]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35561
Loc: Great Lakes
Are you saying you used M1 ESP 5w-30 for 450K km in that Peugeot?

In any case, the guy wasn't saying that the engine would die at 200K miles. Only that there would be measurable wear that would result in less than optimal compression leading to loss of performance and oil consumption.
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#3351103 - 04/23/14 12:51 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4840
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are you saying you used M1 ESP 5w-30 for 450K km in that Peugeot?

In any case, the guy wasn't saying that the engine would die at 200K miles. Only that there would be measurable wear that would result in less than optimal compression leading to loss of performance and oil consumption.

No, we used Total Ineo C3 5W30. I think it is 0.8% SA.
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#3351997 - 04/24/14 01:59 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: edyvw]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 2202
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.


The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?
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#3352056 - 04/24/14 03:13 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: bigjl]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 549
Loc: England

The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?

[/quote]

It's the injector seals that cause the problem. They leak, allowing combustion soot into the oil circuit which then clogs up the oil ways to the turbo as well as destroying the turbo bearings. It's really difficult to clean the carbon out of the engine as well so people change the turbo and then the new one fails as well. It seems to be more common on Fords than the other cars that engine is fitted to.


Edited by riggaz (04/24/14 03:14 PM)

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#3352109 - 04/24/14 04:41 PM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: bigjl]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4840
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.

I sold in Europe Peugeot 1.6HDI that was used in business I have there with around 450,000 km which is close to 300K miles. C3 oil was always used, and engine on a car was still a bomb.


The 1.6hdi/tdci lump us a nice engine but suffers from horrendous oil related failures in the UK.

Usually turbo related.

I do wonder if it is stop start urban running but running the oci out to the maximum without considering severe service which is the issue?


hmm, among Pug guys in Bosnia, 1.6hdi has status of uber-engine. Most of the problems they were facing with was 2.0hdi. This engine literally never had any issues except regular maintenance.
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#3358614 - 05/01/14 10:41 AM Re: C4 in place of C3? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 709
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
I would think the engine would have to be designed for C4 since it requires lower levels of Phosphorus. On plus side NOAK must be under 11 vs 13 for C3.



The main differences between C3 and C4 (in the current 2012 sequences) are:

- Noack: C3 13% max, C4 11% max
- sulphur: C3 0.3% max, C4 0.2% max
- phosphorus: BOTH are 900ppm max, but C3 has a 700ppm minimum
- sulphated ash: C3 0.8% max, C4 0.5% max

All engine testing parameters, which includes tests for piston cleanliness, viscosity increase, oil consumption, sludge, valve train wear and cylinder wear in both gasoline and diesel engines are identical. The main engine wear test (OM646LA) has exactly the same pass limits as for A3/B4 and A5/B5.

There's no way you can say that C3 oils will outperform C4, because firstly they shouldn't be in the same engines and secondly there will be some C4 oils better than others, so a good C4 will outperform an average C3.

Horses for courses, as we say on this little island.
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