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#3345702 - 04/17/14 03:30 PM Wire screen backed filter?
Camprunner Offline


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 860
Loc: MA.
Would a wire backed filter media like a Fram Ultra for example have an advantage as far as flow rate where the filter media would be less compressed in the filter allowing the oil to have less flow restriction?

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#3345749 - 04/17/14 04:33 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Camprunner]
Oregoonian Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 2747
Loc: Bend, Oregon
My uneducated guess would be....Yes, a defiant advantage. But my understanding is that oil flow is not an issue with most filters, wire backed or not.
_________________________
03' Ford Focus SE(2.3L Duratec PZEV)/ 140K +
Pnz. Ultra 0w20 / Fram 'Ultra'/ OCI: 8000 +/-
ATF: Mercon V w/Lubegard Red


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#3345754 - 04/17/14 04:49 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Camprunner]
richport29 Offline


Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 292
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Classis typo wink

Defiant advantage, lol

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#3345766 - 04/17/14 05:03 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: richport29]
Oregoonian Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 2747
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Originally Posted By: richport29
Classis typo wink

Defiant advantage, lol

It would be more useful if you would respond to the issue posted....than trying to be spelling policeman.
_________________________
03' Ford Focus SE(2.3L Duratec PZEV)/ 140K +
Pnz. Ultra 0w20 / Fram 'Ultra'/ OCI: 8000 +/-
ATF: Mercon V w/Lubegard Red


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#3345800 - 04/17/14 05:37 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Camprunner]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 15279
Loc: PNW
^^^ Yes, full synthetic media will flow better than cellulose for a given flow area.

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#3345867 - 04/17/14 07:26 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Oregoonian]
richport29 Offline


Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 292
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: richport29
Classis typo wink

Defiant advantage, lol

It would be more useful if you would respond to the issue posted....than trying to be spelling policeman.


It was a joke, take it easy. And for the record I said typo, not bad spelling..

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#3345884 - 04/17/14 07:47 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: richport29]
richport29 Offline


Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 292
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: richport29
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: richport29
Classis typo wink

Defiant advantage, lol

It would be more useful if you would respond to the issue posted....than trying to be spelling policeman.


It was a joke, take it easy. And for the record I said typo, not a shot at your spelling..
I actually also made a typo myself,check out my spelling on the word classic.

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#3345949 - 04/17/14 08:49 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: ZeeOSix]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 16923
Loc: Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Yes, full synthetic media will flow better than cellulose for a given flow area.


OK then - you tell me why the NAPA Gold and NAPA Platinum have the same flow ratings - I've been wondering about that anyway.

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#3346171 - 04/18/14 05:46 AM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Camprunner]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6925
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Would a wire backed filter media like a Fram Ultra for example have an advantage as far as flow rate where the filter media would be less compressed in the filter allowing the oil to have less flow restriction?


I am going to dissent here ...

Generally, no. At least not to a point where your engine would ever know any difference. Technically, for any given media density, there may exist a small advantage, but not in a manner that you infer.

You cannot ignore the relationship of flow to pressure (delta P) across the media. There isn't any real difference between dP for most filters during normal use, and so the flow isn't going to be appreciably different either. I say this in context of comparing/contrasting a FU to TG for example, as they have the same efficiency rating.

What most folks don't understand is that these premium filters (FU, XP, etc) don't really get you "better" performance specs, but they do offer LONGER performance durations. Great example is the TG and FU from Fram. Both rated at 99%, but the FU is rated for 50% more use (more holding capacity of contaminants). So, for any given loading of the media, the dP will be about the same, and therefore the flow will be about the same, relative to the OCI. Only if the media were nearly 100% loaded, would the bypass open, and then flow would balance via the variable spring pressure ...

In fact, a lessor efficient filter would, in theory, perhaps offer less dP, and therefore more flow. For example, perhaps the EG would flow more than the FU; 95% to 99%. I cannot prove this nor do I have any basis other than a hunch. Certainly, when looking at lower efficient filter such as OEM Toyota or Honda, they certainly "flow" a lot because they are not very efficient at all. Does that stop engines from running? Nope.

Here's the thing to understand:
Generally, nearly any filter made for a full flow application used in a traditional positive displacement oil flow system has probably 2x more flow capability than the pump could put out. Even a lowly dreaded cellulose filter can flow way more oil than your engine is going to push. Since these filters flow WAY more than the engine will deliver, how much one flows relative to another is completely moot dribble that only we BITOGers noodle over. It just has no practical concern in the real world.

Most filter makers don't publish data, but Wix does. And all their filters are rated at the same flow for the given application of individual filter.



Some of you "worry" (fret, ponder, mull, ...) over things that just have no real world tangible effect. Whether or not the FU "flows" more over some other alternative is pointless. All filters flow way more than the engine will deliver.


Edited by dnewton3 (04/18/14 06:03 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3346220 - 04/18/14 07:38 AM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: dnewton3]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 16923
Loc: Clovis, CA
What I'm thinking is :

Since wire backed air filters flow more air, why don't wire backed oil filters flow more oil ?

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#3346230 - 04/18/14 07:51 AM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: Merkava_4]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 8757
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Yes, full synthetic media will flow better than cellulose for a given flow area.


OK then - you tell me why the NAPA Gold and NAPA Platinum have the same flow ratings - I've been wondering about that anyway.


Very good question. Don't they both have identical construction as well?
_________________________
03 Jeep WJ 4.0 197k Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 170k M1 0w40 Mann HU818X
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 136k XOM Super Syn. 5w30 M1-201


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#3346275 - 04/18/14 08:42 AM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: dlundblad]
David1 Offline


Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 1264
Loc: USA, FLA
I thought the wire was there to make the filter strong so it would not collapse / giving it a longer OCI..

You see the cellulose based filters that have been taken apart and the pleats are wavy or torn or collapsed.


So I thought the wire was there to offer support also since there is more filter media the wire also helped also.

Like Heavy DUTY.. get it?
_________________________
2002 Honda Accord V6 3.0 Automatic Trans 230K Miles
Valvoline Maxx Life FULL SYN 5W30
HAMP or FULL Or HONDA Filtech A01s

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#3346536 - 04/18/14 01:04 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: dlundblad]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 15279
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ Yes, full synthetic media will flow better than cellulose for a given flow area.


OK then - you tell me why the NAPA Gold and NAPA Platinum have the same flow ratings - I've been wondering about that anyway.


Very good question. Don't they both have identical construction as well?


As dnewton said, the Wix "flow ratings" are a bit nebulous, and are probably somewhat "white washed" just like their beta ratios are.

dlundblad - the NAPA Gold and Platinum are not constructed the same because their media is different. A full synthetic media needs a wire backing to support the media. Full synthetic media can not support itself like cellulose media can.

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#3346543 - 04/18/14 01:13 PM Re: Wire screen backed filter? [Re: dnewton3]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 15279
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Some of you "worry" (fret, ponder, mull, ...) over things that just have no real world tangible effect. Whether or not the FU "flows" more over some other alternative is pointless. All filters flow way more than the engine will deliver.


+1 ... the only real advantage that a better flowing oil filter gives you is more "headroom" before the oil pump goes into pressure relief mode. What that means is the flow resistance of the oil filter is invisible to the positive displacement oil pump - the pump will push/force all the oil volume down the filter and engine up until the pump hits pressure relief. So if an oil filter was really restrictive and made the pump run really close to the pressure relief point, then at higher RPM the engine would not get as much oil flow compared to a less restrictive filter because once the pump hits pressure relief than the oil volume through the filter and engine is limited based on the max pressure driving the flow.

In a nutshell, one could say that a better flowing oil filter ensures that the engine gets more oil flow at high engine RPM when the oil pump hits pressure relief. That's why guys who race where their engine is always wound up high near redline want a free flowing oil filter. But 99.9% of the cars driving around the streets that never see near redline will never know the difference in flow restriction of the oil filter.

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