2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles

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- When I post, it often comes off rude; that is unfortunate and a burden I have to shoulder. It often sours the reception of others; I get that. So be it.
- When I post, it is with the knowledge that comes from a HUGE amount of UOA data (much, much more than any BITOG pretender).
- When I post, it is with the experience that comes from years of statistical process quality control engineering.
- When I post, I most always put up my evidence, either directly with my personal work data, or referring to the work of others such as SAE studies, UOA data, etc.
- When I post, I ask for those who disagree with me to PROVE their position with facts and data, rather than rhetoric and mythology. Anecdotal tidbits aren't proof.

And typically I'm met with personal attacks and ... (insert sounds of chirping crickets in lieu of real facts) ...

I once participated in a thread and made a very short observation; I was told that it was wrong and not well thought out. I then replied with a very detailed thorough analysis, and included several links as proof. The response to my elaboration? It was said I type too much .... some folks are just never happy with the response they get.

In this thread, I never said the 5k mile syn OCI was a bad idea. I said that there is zero evidence to PROVE it's the right decision; there is no data I've seen to indicate the OP (or anyone else) has any idea of what marker(s) may show the onset of the issue, and therefore NO ONE has ANY idea past a barn-wide SWAG.

What I have said is that IF (emphasis on IF) the UOA contains any marker, then the syn did nothing to distinguish itself from a dino alternative because this UOA is totally average. If the marker(s) is NOT present, then why brag on the lube and point to the OCI duration as the near-perfect solution?

Where is the value of a UOA here? I've already said it; it's OTHER FOLKS UOA data you should be looking at. Look for a marker, if one even exists. Then use it to predict the safe OCI duration, regardless of the lube base stock chosen.

The bug up my posterior here is that the methodology (or more accurately, the lack thereof) is haphazard. The OP brags on the lube and OCI as a best-fit solution, but cannot articulately describe WHY that syn or that OCI is right other than to point at other folks who happen to not have sludged engines; that is correlation and nothing more. Nor can he provide any statistical data as to how many VCM engines do sludge, under what contributing circumstances, and what delineates the OCI duration relative to base stock (dino versus syn) for the onset of that condition. And then folks run to his rescue with personal attacks on me when I ask for proof on concept.

Any dino lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
Any syn lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
The question I ask is this: is there an identifiable marker, and if so, does it reveal any PROOF as to the duration any particular lube can safely sustain?



I return you to your regularly scheduled rhetoric, hype and personal affronts.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
- When I post, it often comes off rude; that is unfortunate and a burden I have to shoulder. It often sours the reception of others; I get that. So be it.

What I have said is that IF (emphasis on IF) the UOA contains any marker, then the syn did nothing to distinguish itself from a dino alternative because this UOA is totally average. If the marker(s) is NOT present, then why brag on the lube and point to the OCI duration as the near-perfect solution?

Nor can he provide any statistical data as to how many VCM engines do sludge, under what contributing circumstances, and what delineates the OCI duration relative to base stock (dino versus syn) for the onset of that condition.

Any dino lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
Any syn lube will likely sludge in this engine if run too long.
The question I ask is this: is there an identifiable marker, and if so, does it reveal any PROOF as to the duration any particular lube can safely sustain?

Dave you do not need to carry this as a burden. Its simply your natural style and at least you it helps you to articulate your points very well.

So the floor is open for all those who can collaborate useful data to identify:
- what are the identifiable markers for the correct OCIs for dino oil and synthetic in this engine (at which point the dino will sludge and the synthetic will sludge) ?
- is there any typical driving style or other conditions that actually lead to the sludging issue in these VCM honda engines ?
 
I get where Dave comes from completely. I have a background in numbers and analysis and know the gulf in knowledge and understanding between people who do what Dave does and a lot of others here, including some with high post counts.

(I don't mean to demean anyone, just in the style of Dave, I'm telling it how it is).

The only thing I would say though is that in the absence of data, people need to make decisions still. And I think what happens is that those people, without the background to understand where Dave is coming from, will feel their opinions of deciding to play it safe (in their opinion), are being ignored in the discussion.

One last point for Dave is that if it is your mission to educate, then it would be logical to take some time to figure out how to position what you say to make sure it is received well. The choice to do so or not is similar in mechanism to the choice some make to decide to go with synthetic.

Would like to add though that I am incredibly appreciative of Dave's contributions to this forum.
 
Ok so the OP made a decision to play it safe based on the unfortunate experience of others. He doesn't have years of research and data analysis to back up his decision.

Dave are you playing the devils advocate? Or just spewing questions that no one with any normal amount of money can answer?

Why is it that can you only criticize? Consider the two responses

1. Your a bum! how can you change oil every 5k? What massive waste! You don't need a syn, just use Dino(I don't know how long but use it anyway) how can you make a decision without first spending thousands of dollars and hours researching? You must be a lowlife dirtbag who can't tie their own shoes if you change m1 every 5k. Only a halfwit would EVER do that!

2. I applaude your effort to maintain your engine whose history is very problematic. That being said I think you will save money by using Dino oil. May I suggest using Dino and getting a UOA every 1k miles starting with a VOA. Run the oil until you see a red flag on the wear and or viscosity, indicating the need to change the oil. Yes this May potentially damage the engine but I believe that the UOA will give us a sign before any damage may occur. This may seem a bit expensive at first but when you realize that you can use Free after rebate Dino oil and filters your savings will begin to add up.

PS if my method causes your engine to fail I'll buy you a new engine and or pay for repairs. Cheers, Dave
 
Where did he brag and say his method is tried and true, the true holy grail of VCM engine oil and OCI. did he call anyone names for not doing exactly as he has done??? Or was he simply showing what his decision has led to? Mb bragging When he said the engine did not burn a drop of oil? I'd take that as a statement giving useful information that the UOA can't provide.

What if he had done many UOA on the same oil and taken it to say 12k. Maybe the UOA shows nothing alarming and the engine croaks , would you have applauded his resolve to stick it out as a TRUE statistician or would you have told him he's a bum for not changing his oil based on some other research or fact that doesn't exist in anyones mind but your own?

Maybe I'll just call everyone names and criticize everyone's choices regardless of what they are.

To be honest if I was the OP I would either do exactly as he is currently doing or slowly add miles like 500 or so to each OCI and look for any small changes on UOA Even then if the latter would make him lose sleep why risk it. What is the cost of M1 and 5k OCI over 100,000 miles? $30 x 20 OCI for a grand total of $600.

How many professional statisticians and engineers are testing their own engines and pushing their oil to destruction in their new daily driver cars? Or is this expensive research conducted using company funds and not someones livelihood on line.

The really is sad, I'm sorry Chris
 
Well said. How much more over the course of say 100K is the Mobil 1 going to cost over dino at 5K OCI?
Not using Wally world price but national chain prices on sale 20 oil changes..
PP or Ultra synthetic and a Bosch filter @ $32 = $640
PYB with filter @ $23 = $460

For a savings of $180 over 100K or $540 over 300K which should be close to end of life.
Now throw a $25 UOA in the mix every 20K = a Total savings of $165 over the 300K or the life of the engine.

While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

I don't know about anyone else but for $165 over the life of the car to pretty much guarantee the engine will not sludge is a excellent return on investment.
I do 5K OCI with synthetic on all my engines or once a year on small engines like snowblowers and lawnmowers.
I don't feel the need or financial pinch to squeeze the last drop of life out of cheap engine oil. We are talking pocket change here, not even the price of med coffee once a week.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?
I don't need the SAE or anyone else to tell me its going to cost more than $165 I guarantee it will.

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Well said. How much more over the course of say 100K is the Mobil 1 going to cost over dino at 5K OCI?
Not using Wally world price but national chain prices on sale 20 oil changes..
PP or Ultra synthetic and a Bosch filter @ $32 = $640
PYB with filter @ $23 = $460

For a savings of $180 over 100K or $540 over 300K which should be close to end of life.
Now throw a $25 UOA in the mix every 20K = a Total savings of $165 over the 300K or the life of the engine.

While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

I don't know about anyone else but for $165 over the life of the car to pretty much guarantee the engine will not sludge is a excellent return on investment.
I do 5K OCI with synthetic on all my engines or once a year on small engines like snowblowers and lawnmowers.
I don't feel the need or financial pinch to squeeze the last drop of life out of cheap engine oil. We are talking pocket change here, not even the price of med coffee once a week.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?
I don't need the SAE or anyone else to tell me its going to cost more than $165 I guarantee it will.

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".



Well said Paul, however I think the need for a UOA every 10K miles in one of these engines would be a better idea. I think more frequent checks are warranted to see if a problem is arising, or to see if a UOA can give you any indication of this kind of problem at all. IMO pulling the valve cover covering the problem head might be money better spent for this application than a UOA. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Thanks!
In your 40-year extensive real world experience, are there any other engines with similar sludging issues ?
If you have taken apart the R18 Honda Civic engines in the past 5-7 years, could you please commend if these engines are prone to sludge or just varnish in case OCI is extended beyond 5K to 8K miles using dino oil and synthetic oil, respectively ?
 
Doing a UOA @ $25 every 10K instead of every 20K would add anther $375 making it now $210 more expensive than the cost of running synthetic over the engines 300K life.
Pulling the covers is about $80 in gaskets and 2.3 hours labor. Another loss.

This is basically a very good engine that isn't prone to head gasket failure, cam or crank problems, just this issue on the VCM engines.
IMO there is more than enough real world evidence that they can be kept clean cheaply and with no more effort, i don't understand the argument against it.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Doing a UOA @ $25 every 10K instead of every 20K would add anther $375 making it now $210 more expensive than the cost of running synthetic over the engines 300K life.
Pulling the covers is about $80 in gaskets and 2.3 hours labor. Another loss.

This is basically a very good engine that isn't prone to head gasket failure, cam or crank problems, just this issue on the VCM engines.
IMO there is more than enough real world evidence that they can be kept clean cheaply and with no more effort, i don't understand the argument against it.


No argument from me........I'd use synthetic and dump it every 5K if that's all it takes to protect one from that mess you showed in the pictures.
 
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Trav
While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Thanks!
In your 40-year extensive real world experience, are there any other engines with similar sludging issues ?
If you have taken apart the R18 Honda Civic engines in the past 5-7 years, could you please commend if these engines are prone to sludge or just varnish in case OCI is extended beyond 5K to 8K miles using dino oil and synthetic oil, respectively ?


No i haven't worked on newer Honda R18 engines. I don't use dino at all anymore, for the little difference in price (US prices) over the life of the car and the added benefits of synthetic i don't see any reason to.

I take a very old school and non scientific approach. I run 7500 on synthetic and if it still looks nice and shiny under the cover or through the fill hole i run with that OCI.
If it show any discoloration at all i drop it to 5K.
This is easy if you have a new engine to work with. Older engines i start with 5K and see if it begins to clean up, i get it clean than do the 7500 and see if it stays that way.

Some say follow the OLM but in my experience there are good ones and not so good ones.
If see the OLM is mirroring what i am seeing in the engine then i have no problem with them.
My GM is very conservative it comes on between 3 and 4K and if i drive it daily 5K so its not just based on time or miles.

At the price of oil in the US i don't bother trying to squeeze the last 1000 miles out it, its not worth the time and trouble to me.
There are a few known sludge engines out there, almost every manufacturer has had one at one time or another but they are not the norm.
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


I agree that there is no evidence that this oil suffered ill affects from this engine with a 5k OCI. Run it out to the max OLM and see what you have.
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


So are you saying a UOA is better than an actual tear down in this instance? Trav posted pics of an actually tear down following the OLM using a Group III synthetic oil. The results were not good. In this situation I'd follow the advise of a pro who did actual tear downs of more than one engine, and ignore the OLM. Opinions vary.
 
I'm asking for some leeway up front here for my ignorance. The OLM I'm assuming is the indicator that tells you it's time to change the oil. I don't understand how it works or what it bases its decision on that it is time to change the oil. Can someone help me out here? I drove my Jeep off the lot brand new with 6 miles on it. It currently has 38.2K miles. My OLM has come on twice since I've had it. I know how many times because I had to reset it. Since I don't know when it's going to come on again, I'll swag and say by 40k for discussion purposes. That's an oil change every 13.3K with conventional oil. There's no way I'd wait that long. It has had 8 OCI's to this point, one at 1.5K, one at 5k and every 5K after that religiously. Am I looking at this wrong?
 
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Dont know what kind of engine the Jeep uses.
But I ran Conventional (Valvoline 5W-30) in my 2003 Trailblazer (Inline 6)... for up to 11,500 mile oil change intervals...
at 172,000 the engine is still purring along....

The UOA's are posted on here somewhere.
 
Jeep JK's have the 3.8l v6. It was originally installed in the Dodge/Chrysler minivans. It's supposed to be a well-tested, dependable engine and it's been around for quite a while. It's been great so far. I'm still confused as to what criteria the OLM uses to trigger an oil change. It won't know if I'm using the best synthetic oil and filter money can buy or Super Tech conventional with the cheapest oil filter. If this engine was prone to sludge like the OP of this thread, which I believe it's not, owner's of these engines could be in the same boat.
 
It probably uses an algorithm that looks a various parameters such as coolant temp, possibly oil temp, ambient temp, average speed, idle time, engine run time, fuel trims and a few other things.
It gathers the information and tries to put a time and number to it. Some work better than others.

I know very little about Chrysler engines, in fact nothing at all outside general repairs, i wouldn't know one if it was sitting in front of me if it had no tags on it.
I good Chrysler forum may be the place to find out more about this engine and what its shortcomings or not are.
 
Hi everyone:

I just got o letter in the mail from Honda Canada in regards to a warranty extension on my 2013 Odyssey. It's entitled " Engine Misfire Due To Carbon fouling of Spark Plugs"

The problem, as stated in the letter, reads:

"On certain Honda vehicles equipped with V6 engines with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM-2) , the cycling of the cylinders under certain drive conditions allows for spark plug cooling, which may result in carbon fouling of the spark plugs. . When the fouling becomes severe, the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) will come on, and one or more Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC P0301, P0302, P0303, or P0304) will be stored in the vehicles Powertrain Control Module."

Does anyone here know if this is the same problem being talked about on this thread, only from different vantage point? Is this problem in the warranty extension letter just an end result of not changing the oil often enough?

Thanks
 
I have written extensively on this site about this issue. Honda VCM issues have nothing to do with oil other than it's "mysterious" disappearance. My interest stems from my daughter spending her hard earned money for her first car, a 2011 VCM V6 Accord EX-L, a car she truly loves. I have done all the oil changes on her car with a UOA on every change, also posted on this forum.

One of the first clues we got from Honda (other than many, many unhappy owners getting stonewalled by Honda and their dealer network, being told that a quart per 1000 miles was normal consumption) was a publicly announced "improvement" for MY 2011 engines that included new oil control rings and moly-impregnated piston skirts. It was at this time that Honda sent a very strong message to every single dealer that they MUST insist that all new VCMs be driven to 10% on the MM. Of course, what they didn't explain to customers was that this 7-8,000 mile interval on the FF was so the anti-wear molybdenum coatings on the pistons could dissolve and bond to reciprocating parts in hopes of reducing VCMs alarming oil consumption--the real problem. You see, it turns out ECMs controlling our engines are smart enough to enable VCM and make a six cylinder run unnaturally on three or four but, they are not smart enough to alter the laws of physics.

Honda finally acknowledged the problem and helped their poor dealers and customers they'd been lying to and stonewalling by issuing a service bulletin that identified the true source of the design failure: long highway crusing at steady state speeds that allowed extended cylinder shut down, differential cooling and the resulting blow-by shrunken oil control rings and a gradual emptying of the crankcase out the tail pipe.

Finally, after years of denial, lies and coverups (not to mention thousands of Honda loyalists swearing off the brand after being illegally denied warranty service on this design flaw), two individuals filed suit. You can read all the gory details in the documents found on the settlement site below so I'll just summarize here. One plaintiff had a V6 VCM and interestingly, one had a four cylinder--non-VCM, of course. They sued Honda together for excessive OIL CONSUMPTION. In the course of litigation and the wheeling and dealing to move toward a settlement, Honda won some very important (and obviously critical to them) concessions. #1, Honda forced the name of the problem to be changed from "oil consumption" to "engine misfire". You can figure out for yourselves what a monumental victory this was by their attorneys in limiting Honda's liability. #2 The "engine misfire" problem was then further restricted to certain engine codes. This legal victory means that only those customers who have been serviced at Honda dealerships and have saved their paperwork identifying one of the problem codes will be eligible for reimbursement of their repair costs. #3, the four cylinder family (and hence all non-VCM engines) was completely eliminated from the settlement! This eliminated millions of vehicles from potential warranty service or recall. It also means there's at least one other major additional design flaw in non-VCM engines that Honda has successfully covered up.

So the class action settlement that is still pending will reimburse VCM victims for repairs that they paid for at Honda dealer's if they can produce documentation identifying one of the service codes covered and it gives all other VCM owners warranty coverage extended to eight years from date of warranty initiation. The settlement is still pending because the judge mandated a period for public comment. Interestingly, Honda has baked another out into the cake. If 1000 VCM owners opt out of the settlement (a legal form has to be submitted by a certain date), Honda can back out. In other words, if they still have to deal with an avalanche of individual lawsuits, why settle at all?

Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

So, to the OP, if he stuck with me through this much to long post at 6:00am on a Saturday morning, the issue really isn't oil change interval. I've proven to my satisfaction (and maybe yours) that MY VCM and the way WE use it can easily handle what the MM tells it to do. Given the legal situation, I believe it foolish to do otherwise. But, I've also proven with my own testing that the condition of the full syns Ive used is fine out to about 8,000 miles. The KEY is to check your oil level weekly. The real problems have come to this soccer moms who never open the hood between oil changes, drive 6-7000 miles and have their engines come to a grinding seizure because all the crankcase oil has flown out the tailpipe. And finally, sell this turd of an engine design before your warranty expires. Honda has more than proven to me that I cannot trust them to be honest and therefore I can no longer support their brands.

Good luck.

http://settlement-claims.com/enginemisfire/Notice.html
 
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Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?
 
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