New Indian Motorcycle Oil query

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The new Indian Motorcycles are specified to take a semi-synthetic oil meeting API-SM and ILSAC GF-4 standards. 20/40 weight.

To me, these are car oil specs.

Can someone enlighten me here on what this is about or throw some light on the situation?
 
I think there might be a special motorcycle oil in 20w-40, but I can't recall the manufacturer. I've never seen one on the shelf.

I bet Rotella T Triple 15w-40 or T6 5w-40 would work well. There are a lot of 10w-40 motorcycle-specific oils available too. Most places have Mobil 1.

I'd probably start with the Rotella T Triple 15w-40 and see how it does. If you need something fancier, you can move on from there.
 
Since Indian is made and owned by Victory, I am betting its the same 20w40 oil Victory specs for their bikes. Only 20w40 oils you really see on shelves are Yamalube or Victory brands nowadays. It used to be a popular oil viscosity back in the days when 10w40 was garbage and broke down easily.
 
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I think there might be a special motorcycle oil in 20w-40, but I can't recall the manufacturer. I've never seen one on the shelf.

I bet Rotella T Triple 15w-40 or T6 5w-40 would work well. There are a lot of 10w-40 motorcycle-specific oils available too. Most places have Mobil 1.

I'd probably start with the Rotella T Triple 15w-40 and see how it does. If you need something fancier, you can move on from there.



+1

First off is the Indian a shared sump bike or has it got dedicated engine oil,tranny fluid and primary.
My Harley has 3 holes. It opens up a whole new world of oils.
Put he reason air cooled bikes are a 20w is because they are built loose to allow for expansion. When you consider the wide heat range they go thru its amassing they don't blow up.
Anyways the 20w means during the warm up phase the oil isn't too thin and keeps the oil from passing by the pistons.
To me this is Indians way(like victory) to force you to buy their oil because get grade(like victory) isn't common.
I use rotella 15w-40 in my Harley's engine as well as the primary. I used redline shockproof in my tranny.
Now if your bike doesn't share oil and the engine oil is separate then you can use an oil that contains friction modifiers. I really like royal purple 20w-50 automotive oil in my Harley. But cost is ridiculous.
I add mos2 to my engines oil. Rotella has no friction modifiers and because my bike isn't a shared sump I can use them.
My shared sump bikes get conventional rotella too. I've tried every high priced oil out there. There is no better value than rotella conventional for bikes.
Because its cheap I'm not trying to squeeze out any extra miles from the interval,so I change the oil as soon as I hear the top end begin to clack,around 3000 miles I change it without a second thought.
In theory a 20w-40 would need little to no viscosity index improvers which tend to be polymers,so in theory there would be little to no shear.
I can say from experience rotella is very resistant to shear and what thins it in my bike is fuel.
If money is no object then I'd shop around. Redline makes some amazing bike oils,and if your oil is separate from the rest of the fluids you can use a car oil. I'm sure at redline they could tell you what ratio to blend their oils at to achieve the viscosity characteristics that Indian is after.
Motul also makes some great products too.
But those oils are expensive and in the end it will cost you more unless you push the oil to go that extra mile where as rotella is cheap and changing the oil no longer makes me cringe because I don't pay 20 a litre anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Since Indian is made and owned by Victory, I am betting its the same 20w40 oil Victory specs for their bikes. Only 20w40 oils you really see on shelves are Yamalube or Victory brands nowadays. It used to be a popular oil viscosity back in the days when 10w40 was garbage and broke down easily.


I was thinking the same thing. I'm guessing the victory and Indian oils are the same thing in essence.
Any idea what the can-am spyder uses for oil. Since can-am makes them all I'm guessing that essentially the stuff will be all the same.
And with Indian resurrected by a company with the engineering know how and the infrastructure to handle it Harley now has the first real competition it's ever had on the Western Hemisphere.
Harley sells an image. And they do it well. Now imagine an Indian also with that image but selling a bike that is decades ahead of Harley in the engineering department and makes decent power right off the showroom floor.
I did a lot of the work on my Harley myself and went 106 cubes however to get 107hp/115tq it cost he in excess of 6k over and above the purchase price of the bike.
Victory has that tight off the showroom floor(pretty much) with a 106 too. Harley isn't breaking 100hp/100tq even with their cvo bikes with 110cubes.
I'm afraid Harley is gonna have to spend some real money on the bikes because with this much competition they just aren't going to be able to coast anymore.
The Japanese can't build a cruiser the way the North American consumer wants one which is why Harley has had such an easy time coasting. Now with Indian and victory Harley is actually going to have to come up with an answer.
Thank god the aftermarket for Harley is huge because Indian is a game changer and will take a huge bite out of Harley's sales.
Take notice Harley. No longer will sub par parts and poor excuses for dealers be tolerated,there is a new game in town.
 
I don't think Indian is going to put a dent in a wide range of Harley sales, the model range is limited and the price of the Indian is a bit too high. It may drain some of the clients who would buy the more vintage themed soft tails off, but they have no competition against the Sportster line, and by not selling them side by side with victorys, they are really only competing with a limited segment of HD while having to prop up a whole additional dealer network.

It looks to be a good bike, just not sure about the business model. Maybe they will expand it but right now Victory and Indian may not be taking too much out of Harley yet. They have the right machines, but Harley's success is only half mechanical, the other half has been mental (marketing). And with HD taking on the smaller cruiser market with the Street 500 and 750 range, I think they will pick up new riders to offset some that will go to victory or indian. But that is capitalism and the free market for you.

I will just be the oddball in the fight and ride by and wave at em on my Triumph.
 
FYI. . .Can-Am has nothing to do with Polaris / Victory.

My recent UOA of the Victory 20w-40 from my Cross Country indicates that this oil works very well--I think Victory did their homework in spec-ing this particular oil for their bikes. In my opinion it's priced competitively to other premium motorcycle oils. The Indians likely use the same formula. Here's the link to my UOA:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14231719/13_VICTORY_XCT-110813_oil_analysis--Redacted.pdf
 
Only thing Can Am has in common is that it recommends and sells a Blend for "summer" use. Some say its packaged by Castrol who makes a variety of weights in Blends, including a 20W-40. Get it on-line for about $25 gal.
 
Many thanks to all the kind Gents for their replies, especially Cleve for taking so much time.

I will drill into this and post back later.

triodes
 
Originally Posted By: triodes
The new Indian Motorcycles are specified to take a semi-synthetic oil meeting API-SM and ILSAC GF-4 standards. 20/40 weight.

To me, these are car oil specs.

Can someone enlighten me here on what this is about or throw some light on the situation?


I took a look at both Victory/Indian websites and they all appear to have a wet clutch design. It's interesting that they recommend the use of an oil that meets API-SM and ILSAC GF-4 rated oil (which indeed are PCMO specs). Regardless, I checked further into their 20W40 and found they state it's formulated without the use of friction modifiers and also prevents clutch slippage.

My best guess as to why they want you to use the 20W40 and those specs is possibly two fold. For one, they are one of the only suppliers of 20W40 that you can get (Yamalube 20W40 is strictly for outboard motors, 20W50 is now recommended for the big twins), this way they'd be nearly guaranteeing you're using their approved/designed oil (nothing wrong with that since they state it's specifically formulated for the Victory/Indian line). Besides it being a unique viscosity, perhaps they decided to go with the 20W40 over the 20W50 because it could be formulated with less VII's thus decreasing the probability of shear, but none the less as Robster showed in his 4500 mile UOA it sheared down to a 30 grade (which seems like a rather low viscosity for a big displacement air cooled twin).

After reviewing his UOA (which is technically Victory 20W40, but I think we can safely assume it will be virtually identical for the Indians), I noticed the Zinc/Phosphorus levels seemed more in line with the SM specs calling for between 0.06-0.08 PPM (even though they technically don't have to meet that requirement because their viscosity is not between the 0W20-10W30 oils) instead of JASO MA specs of 0.08-0.12 PPM, but technically since we don't have a Virgin analysis we can't be absolutely sure of the initial levels. I further noticed its higher content of Magnesium (810) and when compared to virgin analysis of Mobil Delvac 15W40 from PQI America the additive pack is relatively similar (except for higher Calcium/Zinc content, and Moly levels in the Delvac).

The last thing I can think of is that perhaps they don't want their "American" brands to be associated with a Japanese JASO MA spec, but I could very well be wrong on that. None the less, since they call for a 20W40 I think you'd be safe using their brand of oil, and could safely run a 15W40 HDEO like Clevy and be safe, along with any JASO MA 20W50 for higher temperature protection. If under warranty though, I'd definitely stick with their line for the duration of your warranty.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robster
And as has been mentioned before, there's also this Castrol 20w-40 offering which is also a semi-syn:

http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-06394-Acte...w-40+motorcycle

I'm tempted to run an OCI of this and compare it to the Vic oil with a UOA.


You're definitely right Robster, but in the case of the Indian requiring an oil meeting API-SM and ILSAC GF-4 sadly the Actevo X-Tra only exceeds API SG from Castrol's website, thus disqualifying its use.

But if the warranty is said and done then it's definitely an option. I'd be interested in seeing a head to head with the Victory Vs Castrol for sure, who's taking bets!?
wink.gif
 
Yamalube 20w40 is still in the new Star Motorcycles owners manuals as a recommended oil. Just checked their site and downloaded a manual for a 2013 Stryker.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Yamalube 20w40 is still in the new Star Motorcycles owners manuals as a recommended oil. Just checked their site and downloaded a manual for a 2013 Stryker.


You're right Robenstein, it's also in my manual for my 07 FZ1, but if you check the Yamalube website they do not advertise/sell any 20W40 except for outboard motor use. They have the All Purpose Performance 20W50 (standard petroleum based) and a Semi-Synthetic for
Cruisers 20W50, and all their Star oil change kits include 20W50 and no longer use 20W40 and can't be obtained through their dealers. Why they continue to print it in their manuals, I have no clue, perhaps they're hoping you'll stop in the dealership looking for the oil and end up purchasing their brand anyway.

BigCahuna the API SM rating can be obtained as long as it meets specs no matter what the viscosity is of the oil. The Victory 20W40 says it's not to be used in engines equipped with a catalyst, and the SM rating with the phosphorus having to be between 0.06-0.08 is only for oil viscosity's between 0W20-10W30, which leaves our thicker weight motorcycle oils able to run higher amounts of phosphorus as long as it meets the minimum PPM of 0.06 for API SM specs. I think Victory/Indian is simply doing it to make you buy their product, but who knows.
 
Here's what my 2013 Victory owner's manual says:

Engine Oil Recommendation

Polaris Recommends the use of VICTORY brand Semi-Synthetic 20W-40 Motor Oil or equivalent motorcycle oil that is approved for use in wet clutch transmissions (such as those with a JASO MA rating).

As you can see, it specs "motorcycle" oil with no mention of automotive oil certifications.
 
Originally Posted By: Robster
Here's what my 2013 Victory owner's manual says:

Engine Oil Recommendation

Polaris Recommends the use of VICTORY brand Semi-Synthetic 20W-40 Motor Oil or equivalent motorcycle oil that is approved for use in wet clutch transmissions (such as those with a JASO MA rating).

As you can see, it specs "motorcycle" oil with no mention of automotive oil certifications.


I'm not disagreeing with you at all Robster, my post was referring to triodes post about the API-SM and ILSAC GF-4 standards for the Indian motorcycle and what technically meets their manufacturer specs without the mention of JASO MA.

I did mention your UOA on the Victory oil showed phosphorus and zinc levels within API SM specs, but since we don't have a virgin sample to compare to we can't know for certain. By the way, what would you say the cost difference is between the Victory and the Castrol for an oil change in your moto? I think it'd be cool to see a UOA comparison on your Victory, especially on the side of cost vs additional benefits of the oil
smile.gif
 
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