Curious about VI and MRV

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Well, what I have observed in cold temperatures is that GC has much smoother start. Every time I start engine with M1 I can hear camshaft! That never happens with GC unless, car is not driven for 3-4 days. What I think is that GC has magnetic technology also, that is popular in Europe so molecules sticks to camshaft longer.
Anyway, I get what you saying about number, however in practice, it is different story!
I am kicking out this M1 at 3K, and going back to good ole GC!


Sounds like the marketing folks have gotten to you. GC doesn't have "magnetic technology", it probably has some esters in it (that are polar and cling to metal) just like Mobil uses in probably all of their oils.

What causes the sound difference could be one of the additives Castrol uses and perhaps Mobil doesn't. Mobil uses tri-nuclear moly for example, maybe Castrol uses something else that works to deaden sound on your particular engine?

My M5 doesn't care and makes no clatter on PU 5w-40 currently, even though it is significantly heavier than what I had in there last winter (M1 0w-40, which it also made no noise on).

So I would argue that "in practice" your statement about the numbers being a "different story" is more that your engine exhibits certain acoustic traits on M1 0w-40 that it doesn't on GC. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. But it doesn't change the fact that GC likely isn't any thinner at -35C than M1 0w-40 is. And at higher temps, again, M1 0w-40, due to having a higher VI, is also thinner

No I am not persuaded by the marketing guys, however, I like to listen engine. I had same issue with M1 on passat 1.8T, and even now on 2.0T engine definitely developed more noise during cold start, as well as on high rpms.
So, that being said, going back to GC. Never failed so far, never had any issue with consumption or very strong gas odor (which M1 constantly has). Call me old fashioned, but when engine develops more noise using one oil compare to another, that is enough for me to stay away.
I just never understand why I occasionally still come back to give another shot to M1.
For that matter, in the spring i might give a shot to the PU 5W40 for the first time in CC.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

EDYVW you must really like the GC in your VW's. Since we have virtually the same engine TSI 2.0 you make me more curious about GC now.

Mmmmm

 

[edyvw]

I just like smoothness with GC!
Turbo spools much faster (well HTHS is lower). But as I said, M1 is good oil, if it is not I would not use it several times. It is just that engine works better with GC.
Also when it come sot temperature, I used GC in Alabama on 110 degrees and 98% humidity.
Bigger problem is high altitude then 120 degrees.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
With all the research done on GC, it was once a BITOG darling, has it's MRV and CCS spec's ever been determined?
I don't think so.


Actually, if you've been following the GC thread lately a guy posted a link to the UK PDS's that are identical to the US ones except they also contain CCS, so yes, we have CCS. No MRV though.

Here's a link to one of them:

UK GC PDS

CCS is 5,800cP @ -35C (I mistyped in my earlier post, the 5,950cP CCS is for the A5/B5 0w-30).

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
M1 SN 0W-40's MRV of 34,000cP is not great and I don't think Mobil or the OEMs in which it is a FF care either.


31,000cP according to the PDS:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

 

[Shannow]

Yeah, but that's about as much as we know of the "oil that we know the most about" anyway, so they are compatible

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And that supports what I've read with respect to viscosity calculators not being accurate below 0C.

Yep, and that's been our stance on their use here for as long as I can remember.

Quattro Pete's point about M1 0w-40 being fine in ND is absolutely correct. Getting "better" than a 0w-XX is going to be particularly hard, at least if one is trying to stay within manufacturers' specifications.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Not to get too off subject and turn this into which oil is best thread. I'm really trying to avoid that.

It seems to me that GC and M1 0w40 as for cold weather use are nearly identical. Would that be safe to say?

We can speculate that GC has more PAO but does anyone really know? And even so would that make it bettet than the M1?

From the links that overkill had posted over the last couple pages reflects M1 is pretty tough to best in the VW 502 spec oils out there. Or at least holds its own vs oils costing more.

Jeff

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It seems to me that GC and M1 0w40 as for cold weather use are nearly identical. Would that be safe to say?

Absolutely. The real difference is immeasurable to us. They're both 0w-XX with relatively high HTHS. M1 has the better VI, but for extreme cold, they both are 0w-XX, and it doesn't get much better than that.

 

[Shannow]

Yep, IIRC back in the day, the people who knew stuff from detailed analysis suggested either were as good as it gets.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yep, IIRC back in the day, the people who knew stuff from detailed analysis suggested either were as good as it gets.

EXACTLY. Both are EXCELLENT lubricants and you can't go wrong with either. I've had great experience with Mobil products so they are my preference but GC likely performs nary identically to M1 0w-40 under most operating conditions. They both have incredible cold temp performance, Euro-spec HTHS and longevity in use.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I just like smoothness with GC!
Turbo spools much faster (well HTHS is lower). But as I said, M1 is good oil, if it is not I would not use it several times. It is just that engine works better with GC.
Also when it come sot temperature, I used GC in Alabama on 110 degrees and 98% humidity.
Bigger problem is high altitude then 120 degrees.
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Not to get too off subject and turn this into which oil is best thread. I'm really trying to avoid that.

It seems to me that GC and M1 0w40 as for cold weather use are nearly identical. Would that be safe to say?

We can speculate that GC has more PAO but does anyone really know? And even so would that make it bettet than the M1?

From the links that overkill had posted over the last couple pages reflects M1 is pretty tough to best in the VW 502 spec oils out there. Or at least holds its own vs oils costing more.

Jeff



M1 0w-40 is the best oil that can be bought for the dollar spent(at American wal-marts in the 5 litre jugs)as much as it pains me to say.
If a person has that oil and tgmo 0w-20 that person can mix up a brew that can be fine tuned for any of today's engines and surpass a large variety of specs.
As far as ht/hs aren't both GC and M1 0w-40 both at 3.5?
And are we sure GC has any pao in it at all? Not that pao really means anything at all anymore. With the introduction of visom and gtl engine oils now outperform pao anyway,and pao isn't polar however group 3s,visom,gtl and esters are polar which is a significant advantage when starting.
I used to concern myself with an oils basestocks however today's lubrication engineers have many tools they can use and today we are able to buy engine oils that perform as well as or better than what was available even a few years ago.
And these lubricants meet far more and tougher specs at prices that really haven't increased much when compared with the quality.

Got ting back to the op's GC vs M1 question I think in real winter temps the M1 is the better lubricant but once the sub-zero temps are gone I like the GC.
The GC seems to be more shear resistant as well.
How about BC? Its a newer formulation with a brand new additive package vs GC which was cutting edge in its day but has long since been leap-frogged over.
I'd be very interesting in knowing exactly how BC and GC are different in relation to their additive package

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I just like smoothness with GC!
Turbo spools much faster (well HTHS is lower). But as I said, M1 is good oil, if it is not I would not use it several times. It is just that engine works better with GC.
Also when it come sot temperature, I used GC in Alabama on 110 degrees and 98% humidity.
Bigger problem is high altitude then 120 degrees.
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Not to get too off subject and turn this into which oil is best thread. I'm really trying to avoid that.

It seems to me that GC and M1 0w40 as for cold weather use are nearly identical. Would that be safe to say?

We can speculate that GC has more PAO but does anyone really know? And even so would that make it bettet than the M1?

From the links that overkill had posted over the last couple pages reflects M1 is pretty tough to best in the VW 502 spec oils out there. Or at least holds its own vs oils costing more.

Jeff



M1 0w-40 is the best oil that can be bought for the dollar spent(at American wal-marts in the 5 litre jugs)as much as it pains me to say.
If a person has that oil and tgmo 0w-20 that person can mix up a brew that can be fine tuned for any of today's engines and surpass a large variety of specs.
As far as ht/hs aren't both GC and M1 0w-40 both at 3.5?
And are we sure GC has any pao in it at all? Not that pao really means anything at all anymore. With the introduction of visom and gtl engine oils now outperform pao anyway,and pao isn't polar however group 3s,visom,gtl and esters are polar which is a significant advantage when starting.
I used to concern myself with an oils basestocks however today's lubrication engineers have many tools they can use and today we are able to buy engine oils that perform as well as or better than what was available even a few years ago.
And these lubricants meet far more and tougher specs at prices that really haven't increased much when compared with the quality.

Got ting back to the op's GC vs M1 question I think in real winter temps the M1 is the better lubricant but once the sub-zero temps are gone I like the GC.
The GC seems to be more shear resistant as well.
How about BC? Its a newer formulation with a brand new additive package vs GC which was cutting edge in its day but has long since been leap-frogged over.
I'd be very interesting in knowing exactly how BC and GC are different in relation to their additive package


As I said, called me old fashioned, but for me oil that makes more engine noise then other oil, is inferior oil.
M1 has higher HTHS (3.8 compare to 3.58 GC) but I also think that GC is more stable oil.
Anyway, my winter experience proved much better start with GC, so I am going back to it. This is third time I used M1 in CC. Every time I say never again (first time was ok, made 4k out of 5k on highway, no strong gas odor etc), 2nd time 50% was in the city, you would think I pumped gas in the oil pan not in gas tank, that is how strong gas odor was. Then I switched to GC (was using it in Passat 1.8T always) and never had such a strong gas odor, smoother engine, faster turbo spool.
Again I put M1 2k ago, again when you take dipstick out smells like crazy on gas. So M1 is out by the time I hit 3k! And who cares about API SN? Most important is that it meets MB229.5.
As far as Wal mart is concerned, I would rather by Redline from the guy who owns local shop then from WM that is using govt. subsidies to pay workers. That is how M1 is cheaper there. Just my principle!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

As far as ht/hs aren't both GC and M1 0w-40 both at 3.5?


Noooooooo

M1 0w-40 is 3.8

GC is >=3.5cP. We don't have a current value for it because of Castrol's atrocious PDS's.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: edyvw


As I said, called me old fashioned, but for me oil that makes more engine noise then other oil, is inferior oil.
M1 has higher HTHS (3.8 compare to 3.58 GC) but I also think that GC is more stable oil.
Anyway, my winter experience proved much better start with GC, so I am going back to it. This is third time I used M1 in CC. Every time I say never again (first time was ok, made 4k out of 5k on highway, no strong gas odor etc), 2nd time 50% was in the city, you would think I pumped gas in the oil pan not in gas tank, that is how strong gas odor was. Then I switched to GC (was using it in Passat 1.8T always) and never had such a strong gas odor, smoother engine, faster turbo spool.
Again I put M1 2k ago, again when you take dipstick out smells like crazy on gas. So M1 is out by the time I hit 3k! And who cares about API SN? Most important is that it meets MB229.5.
As far as Wal mart is concerned, I would rather by Redline from the guy who owns local shop then from WM that is using govt. subsidies to pay workers. That is how M1 is cheaper there. Just my principle!


I think tossing the term "inferior" around here is misplaced. Perhaps less desirable for you in your application?

Also, explain to me what you think is causing the fuel smell because I'm not following your logic as to how one oil is going to smell like fuel more than another. Usually the contributor to this (fuel dilution) is either ambient temperature, short tripping, stuck injector....etc. Something that is going to cause more fuel to get into the oil. The oil doesn't just make itself smell like fuel to make you hate it

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw


As I said, called me old fashioned, but for me oil that makes more engine noise then other oil, is inferior oil.
M1 has higher HTHS (3.8 compare to 3.58 GC) but I also think that GC is more stable oil.
Anyway, my winter experience proved much better start with GC, so I am going back to it. This is third time I used M1 in CC. Every time I say never again (first time was ok, made 4k out of 5k on highway, no strong gas odor etc), 2nd time 50% was in the city, you would think I pumped gas in the oil pan not in gas tank, that is how strong gas odor was. Then I switched to GC (was using it in Passat 1.8T always) and never had such a strong gas odor, smoother engine, faster turbo spool.
Again I put M1 2k ago, again when you take dipstick out smells like crazy on gas. So M1 is out by the time I hit 3k! And who cares about API SN? Most important is that it meets MB229.5.
As far as Wal mart is concerned, I would rather by Redline from the guy who owns local shop then from WM that is using govt. subsidies to pay workers. That is how M1 is cheaper there. Just my principle!


I think tossing the term "inferior" around here is misplaced. Perhaps less desirable for you in your application?

Also, explain to me what you think is causing the fuel smell because I'm not following your logic as to how one oil is going to smell like fuel more than another. Usually the contributor to this (fuel dilution) is either ambient temperature, short tripping, stuck injector....etc. Something that is going to cause more fuel to get into the oil. The oil doesn't just make itself smell like fuel to make you hate it

As I said I observed that with GC fuel odor is lower them with M1. Only time when M! did not have such a strong odor was when I was doing 80% of highway driving (two very long trips, one trip total 1500miles, other one total 1100 miles).
Then i put again M1, but this time it was maybe 60/40 (60 being city) driving, and that is when I noticed that issue. Also, M1 while new, for approx. 1500 miles, has very good cold start. After that is when I start noticing camshaft noise. After that, I put GC, there is smell, but nothing like with M1 in same style of driving in same ambient temperature. That being said, I have to say that this engine does not consume even a drop of GC or M1.
Why? I seriously do not know! Whether gas cannot evaporate from oil during longer drive (i often do longer but also very hard driving) due to chemical composition of M1 or it is something else, I seriously do not know.
OK, let's say it is not inferior, but not desirable. Still M1 (that I religiously used in Mazda Millennia, 5W30, where I tried Castrol Syntec 5W30, PU 5W30), just does not cut for my application, and for that matter I believe that GC is much better oil in VW 2.0T engine then M1.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Would be nice if Castrol would post up some info. Would like to know the NOACK rating of GC too. The intake valve deposit issue on DI Motors may benefit from a lower NOACK. M1 is around 8% I believe. PU Euro better at around 7% and then GC is a huge mystery.

At least with M1 you know what your getting with data to back what it is.

I do respect EDYVW opinion as well because his 2 VW's basically have the same motor as my GTI. In my car thoughi smell no gas smell. Maybe justa hint but nothing I would callabnormal. I Do know M1 shears but on my UOA's it's never sheared below 12 @ 100c but M1 does claim 13.5 @ 100c. But it does maintain Vis better than the PU (SM). Mind you that PU had a VI of 185 which was more comparable to the M1.

When I turned the key this morning at 26F while my car was outside the motor turned over like it was 90F outside. I Know I don't live where is super cold but the idea was to learn from this post and better understand how The relationship between VI and MRV values in cold weather and how that may equate to less engine wear on any given day.

All the replies have been very informative.

Jeff

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would be nice if Castrol would post up some info. Would like to know the NOACK rating of GC too. The intake valve deposit issue on DI Motors may benefit from a lower NOACK. M1 is around 8% I believe. PU Euro better at around 7% and then GC is a huge mystery.

At least with M1 you know what your getting with data to back what it is.

I do respect EDYVW opinion as well because his 2 VW's basically have the same motor as my GTI. In my car thoughi smell no gas smell. Maybe justa hint but nothing I would callabnormal. I Do know M1 shears but on my UOA's it's never sheared below 12 @ 100c but M1 does claim 13.5 @ 100c. But it does maintain Vis better than the PU (SM). Mind you that PU had a VI of 185 which was more comparable to the M1.

When I turned the key this morning at 26F while my car was outside the motor turned over like it was 90F outside. I Know I don't live where is super cold but the idea was to learn from this post and better understand how The relationship between VI and MRV values in cold weather and how that may equate to less engine wear on any given day.

All the replies have been very informative.

Jeff


You do not have any smell because you are in CA where fuel is much, much cleaner then in other 49 states. I never smell odor in my CC when I lived in CA.
I think NOACK for M1 is 8.7%. STill, GC meets MB 229.5 so it is below 10%.
Someone mentioned here that GC NOACK number is like 7%.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw


As I said, called me old fashioned, but for me oil that makes more engine noise then other oil, is inferior oil.
M1 has higher HTHS (3.8 compare to 3.58 GC) but I also think that GC is more stable oil.
Anyway, my winter experience proved much better start with GC, so I am going back to it. This is third time I used M1 in CC. Every time I say never again (first time was ok, made 4k out of 5k on highway, no strong gas odor etc), 2nd time 50% was in the city, you would think I pumped gas in the oil pan not in gas tank, that is how strong gas odor was. Then I switched to GC (was using it in Passat 1.8T always) and never had such a strong gas odor, smoother engine, faster turbo spool.
Again I put M1 2k ago, again when you take dipstick out smells like crazy on gas. So M1 is out by the time I hit 3k! And who cares about API SN? Most important is that it meets MB229.5.
As far as Wal mart is concerned, I would rather by Redline from the guy who owns local shop then from WM that is using govt. subsidies to pay workers. That is how M1 is cheaper there. Just my principle!


I think tossing the term "inferior" around here is misplaced. Perhaps less desirable for you in your application?

Also, explain to me what you think is causing the fuel smell because I'm not following your logic as to how one oil is going to smell like fuel more than another. Usually the contributor to this (fuel dilution) is either ambient temperature, short tripping, stuck injector....etc. Something that is going to cause more fuel to get into the oil. The oil doesn't just make itself smell like fuel to make you hate it

As I said I observed that with GC fuel odor is lower them with M1. Only time when M! did not have such a strong odor was when I was doing 80% of highway driving (two very long trips, one trip total 1500miles, other one total 1100 miles).
Then i put again M1, but this time it was maybe 60/40 (60 being city) driving, and that is when I noticed that issue. Also, M1 while new, for approx. 1500 miles, has very good cold start. After that is when I start noticing camshaft noise. After that, I put GC, there is smell, but nothing like with M1 in same style of driving in same ambient temperature. That being said, I have to say that this engine does not consume even a drop of GC or M1.
Why? I seriously do not know! Whether gas cannot evaporate from oil during longer drive (i often do longer but also very hard driving) due to chemical composition of M1 or it is something else, I seriously do not know.
OK, let's say it is not inferior, but not desirable. Still M1 (that I religiously used in Mazda Millennia, 5W30, where I tried Castrol Syntec 5W30, PU 5W30), just does not cut for my application, and for that matter I believe that GC is much better oil in VW 2.0T engine then M1.


I wonder if the amount of fuel is the same but the composition of M1 allows the smell to more prevalent whereas GC masks it. Call it GC deodorant. Ahaha

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw


As I said, called me old fashioned, but for me oil that makes more engine noise then other oil, is inferior oil.
M1 has higher HTHS (3.8 compare to 3.58 GC) but I also think that GC is more stable oil.
Anyway, my winter experience proved much better start with GC, so I am going back to it. This is third time I used M1 in CC. Every time I say never again (first time was ok, made 4k out of 5k on highway, no strong gas odor etc), 2nd time 50% was in the city, you would think I pumped gas in the oil pan not in gas tank, that is how strong gas odor was. Then I switched to GC (was using it in Passat 1.8T always) and never had such a strong gas odor, smoother engine, faster turbo spool.
Again I put M1 2k ago, again when you take dipstick out smells like crazy on gas. So M1 is out by the time I hit 3k! And who cares about API SN? Most important is that it meets MB229.5.
As far as Wal mart is concerned, I would rather by Redline from the guy who owns local shop then from WM that is using govt. subsidies to pay workers. That is how M1 is cheaper there. Just my principle!


I think tossing the term "inferior" around here is misplaced. Perhaps less desirable for you in your application?

Also, explain to me what you think is causing the fuel smell because I'm not following your logic as to how one oil is going to smell like fuel more than another. Usually the contributor to this (fuel dilution) is either ambient temperature, short tripping, stuck injector....etc. Something that is going to cause more fuel to get into the oil. The oil doesn't just make itself smell like fuel to make you hate it

As I said I observed that with GC fuel odor is lower them with M1. Only time when M! did not have such a strong odor was when I was doing 80% of highway driving (two very long trips, one trip total 1500miles, other one total 1100 miles).
Then i put again M1, but this time it was maybe 60/40 (60 being city) driving, and that is when I noticed that issue. Also, M1 while new, for approx. 1500 miles, has very good cold start. After that is when I start noticing camshaft noise. After that, I put GC, there is smell, but nothing like with M1 in same style of driving in same ambient temperature. That being said, I have to say that this engine does not consume even a drop of GC or M1.
Why? I seriously do not know! Whether gas cannot evaporate from oil during longer drive (i often do longer but also very hard driving) due to chemical composition of M1 or it is something else, I seriously do not know.
OK, let's say it is not inferior, but not desirable. Still M1 (that I religiously used in Mazda Millennia, 5W30, where I tried Castrol Syntec 5W30, PU 5W30), just does not cut for my application, and for that matter I believe that GC is much better oil in VW 2.0T engine then M1.


I wonder if the amount of fuel is the same but the composition of M1 allows the smell to more prevalent whereas GC masks it. Call it GC deodorant. Ahaha

Well, similar driving conditions for sure and sam gas station.
Considering rough starts, more engine noise, I would go with GC does job better then M1!

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

EDYVW not sure what engine noise your hearing with M1. You hear this noise only in the cold?

From inside my GTI I can't even hear my motor running on M1.

Does the fact that M1 is SN vs SL of theGC mean anything?