adding a few oz's of diesel fuel to a gas engine

[Quest]

who sez wikipedia postings have good credibility?

(*most higher academic institutions refused/rejected research papers/thesis that reference to Wikipedia online sources*)
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/01/26/wiki

And what makes you think that RE: MMO on Wikipedia bears credence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia


......
Wikipedia is open to anonymous and collaborative editing, so assessments of its reliability usually include examination of how quickly false or misleading information is removed. An early study conducted by IBM researchers in 2003—two years following Wikipedia's establishment—found that "vandalism is usually repaired extremely quickly—so quickly that most users will never see its effects"[11] and concluded that Wikipedia had "surprisingly effective self-healing capabilities".[12] A 2007 peer-reviewed study stated that "42% of damage is repaired almost immediately... Nonetheless, there are still hundreds of millions of damaged views."[13]
.....



even though the MMO writings on wiki has been around for quite some years, (last updated on July3,13), there's a flag on the site that reads as follows:


....
This article appears to be written like an advertisement. Please help improve it by rewriting promotional content from a neutral point of view and removing any inappropriate external links. (May 2012)
.......


Since nobody takes responsibility on updating this site, and given the flag which remains since May, 2012, what makes you think the information is credible?


Q.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
who sez wikipedia postings have good credibility?


There is no amount of evidence that will change your belief. That seems to be an unfortunate quality of internet discussions.

The compression test suggested many messages above is simple and can be repeated on any vehicle by any person who has a compression gauge. It helps to pick a vehicle with accessible spark plugs. The results are certainly more dramatic if you are using an inverse oiler and can simply stop the flow. Otherwise, you would need to empty the fuel tank or something of the sort.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
who sez wikipedia postings have good credibility?

(*most higher academic institutions refused/rejected research papers/thesis that reference to Wikipedia online sources*)
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/01/26/wiki

And what makes you think that RE: MMO on Wikipedia bears credence?


blah blah blah...

For anyone following this thread, a few more words might be in order. The original thread question concerned the benefits (if any) of adding a small quantity of diesel fuel to gasoline. Other users have suggested that diesel fuel may not be the best upper cylinder lubricant. I have no experience adding diesel fuel to gasoline, but I suggested that MMO was a useful UCL and cited some personal experience with the product, at which point another user launched a full scale attack on MMO, UCLs, compression testing and Wikipedia (did I miss anything?) based on his beliefs. Yeah, I know, welcome to the internet.

For the mechanics-to-be in the crowd, please be aware that UCLs work - exactly as described and exactly as you might expect. That is, they lubricate the top piston rings and valves, thereby providing a better seal, increasing compression and reducing wear. In an internal combustion engine, more compression means more power - MORE IS BETTER! If anyone should care to argue with that statement, please talk to the hand!

A thoughtful reader might ask "Why would you expect a different result?". That is, if you introduced oil into the combustion chamber, you should reasonably expect better sealing, more compression, etc. It would be quite remarkable if that result did not occur.

Please note: the resulting small increase in cylinder pressures is not to suggest that a UCL is necessary or environmentally friendly or cost effective. A UCL may be none of those things, but it will definitely increase the compression, from which it follows that you get more power, etc.

Finally, for those readers who do not have "2 decades worth of mechanical repair experiences in my shoes, including engine rebuilding/blueprinting days for SCCA racing", a common shop procedure is a compression test - a quick and dirty form of leak-down testing. And, if a cylinder appears problematic, a 'wet compression test' is often done in an attempt to isolate the problem. Wet pressures are typically 10psi more than dry.

The Integra Forum compression test description, mentioned above, is quite good but I would add one point. In shop practice, a mechanic can perform an additional wet compression test very quickly - in a minute! You simply take a long-neck pump oil can and put a couple of squirts in the spark plug hole, insert the compression test gauge and spin the engine. You already had the spark plugs removed and remote starter switch installed, so most of the work is already done. A wet test is frequently done because it is so easy to do!

Adding a UCL, whether mixed with the fuel or by means of an oiler, is akin to running your engine with 'wet compression'. You will get increased compression, from which it follows that... etc. Again, that is not suggesting that you need to do this, or you should do this, or that it will make you more popular with the girls.

I have no idea whether the responder with "2 decades worth of mechanical repair experiences in my shoes, including engine rebuilding/blueprinting days for SCCA racing" has ever used a compression tester. They are very common automotive shop tools, relatively inexpensive and compression testing is one of the most basic engine tests. Compression testing is taught in every auto shop class and auto vo-tech program in the country. If you don't own a compression tester, ask Santa to put one in your stocking.

Claiming that something is an anecdote is a popular debate dodge. But simply because something is an anecdote does not mean it is incorrect or inaccurate or not useful. Of necessity, forum discussions frequently involve anecdotal information. Further, if a person cites a test which can be reasonably duplicated, I respectfully suggest that is a bit more than anecdotal.

Finally, anyone is welcome to attack Wikipedia, even if only as a debate distraction, although I personally think Wiki is a handy and valuable internet resource. It's clearly not the last word on a subject, but it's a very handy first word. But, please, attack an article that is controversial or makes some extraordinary claim. It's rather pointless to attack an article which is simply restating a basic automotive engineering fact.

 

[Quest]

Attack me anyway you want, dave, for you really don't have anything factual evidence to prove MMO UCL benefits, period (and I suspect you never will).

Oh BTW: you can have your last word also (if that strokes your ego), afterall: my suspicion is that you can't walk da walk and talk da talk but simply partake in additive discussions only (mainly), with no real mechanical(repair) experience...

Call it anyway you want. This board is being scrutinised all over the world and let's see whose making a fool out of oneself.

Good day.


Q.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Attack me anyway you want, dave, for you really don't have anything factual evidence to prove MMO UCL benefits, period (and I suspect you never will).

Oh BTW: you can have your last word also (if that strokes your ego), afterall: my suspicion is that you can't walk da walk and talk da talk but simply partake in additive discussions only (mainly), with no real mechanical(repair) experience...

Call it anyway you want. This board is being scrutinised all over the world and let's see whose making a fool out of oneself.


Blah, blah, blah. Have you ever used MMO as a UCL? Did you test the cylinder compression before and after?

 

[Quest]

Sorry dave,

You still aren't able to answer my question RE: any factual evidence RE:MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provide added UCL benefits?

Note: I want quality evidence from reputable sources (SAE.org, university research papers, etc.), not just casual hearsays from the internet.

Answer?

Q.

 

[Quest]

and I'll repeat over and over again: You still aren't able to answer my question RE: any factual evidence RE:MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provide added UCL benefits?

Prove it.

Q.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
and I'll repeat over and over again: You still aren't able to answer my question RE: any factual evidence RE:MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provide added UCL benefits? Prove it.


Blah, blah, blah. Have you ever used MMO as a UCL? Did you test the cylinder compression before and after?

 

[Quest]

also: to answer your question RE: Have you ever used MMO as a UCL? Did you test the cylinder compression before and after?

I have (tried MMO as fuel additive, following manufacturer's instructions) and I see squat, nil, nadda.

Back to the same question one more time to you dave:

You still aren't able to answer my question RE: any factual evidence RE:MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provide added UCL benefits?

prove it.

Q.

 

[Quest]

bye dave...you can have your last word..afterall: you can't keep to a sensible/meaningful technical debate and answer my reasonable question RE: any proof that MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provided added UCL benefits.

Good day.

Q.

Oh and btw: I suspect that you'll never will be able to find factual evidence to show me (or BITOG readers all over the globe) that MMO provides added UCL properties...

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
bye dave...you can have your last word..afterall: you can't keep to a sensible/meaningful technical debate and answer my reasonable question RE: any proof that MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instructions, provided added UCL benefits. Good day.

Oh and btw: I suspect that you'll never will be able to find factual evidence to show me (or BITOG readers all over the globe) that MMO provides added UCL properties...


Blah, blah, blah. Have you ever used MMO as a UCL? Did you test the cylinder compression before and after?

Originally Posted By: Quest
I see squat, nil, nadda.


My question was slightly different from 'what you see'. You need to test - to measure. It would be quite remarkable if you did not measure an increase in cylinder pressure.

 

[Quest]

remember this dave: You came along to challenge my subjective posting on this topic, and now you want me to prove to you that MMO DOES have UCL properties? I think you got your logic all wrong.

Fact is, you should prove to me and the rest of the BITOGers that MMO does have UCL properties, not the other way around.

Remember dave: you can dwell on this said subject over and over again, but I tell you I do not see benefits (and thus asking you to provide me with such research grade reports, not hearsays.)

It's your credibility on BITOG at-stake here, not me. So long as you can provide me with research-grade reports RE: MMO, when used in accordance to manufacturer's instruction, provides UCL properties and whatever, I'll eat my humble pie.

Q.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quest
remember this dave: You came along to challenge my subjective posting on this topic[/u],


I could not have stated this better... your subjective posting. You believe that UCLs do not work. Therefore, they do not work. I respect your subjective wisdom, for whatever it is worth.

I have stated specific experience to the contrary, at least as regards MMO. I also stated how I arrived at my results, even referred to Wiki which states the same conclusion. Further, I have suggested why a UCL works and even suggested a fairly simple test that readers could perform at home on their own vehicle to reach the same conclusion. But, thank you for your concern about my credibility.

You don't believe in UCL (or MMO or Wiki or whatever). I get it.

p.s. 'A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that belief does not prove anything', to paraphrase Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[justinh384]

Arguments like this are ridiculous and childish. I have often wanted to leave BITOG after reading garbage such as this. I hate it more than anything when someone asks a simple question and one or two users turn it into an all out war about which product/oil is better. One cannot simply got onto the PCMO forum and ask which oil is better for their situation without being bombarded arguments based solely on "peace of mind". I originally came here to get advice on oil based on scientific and consumer evidence. Now all I see multiple users arguing about what product is better. This can be seen all of the forums here from PCMO to fuel and oil additives. I know my post may be ignored because I may or may not be considered a 'qualified' user of the forum because of my less than 1000 posts, but believe me I have been on the forum for nearly six months and am not impressed with some of the arguments that come about. I am not attacking either of the users in this thread. I'm just stating a point.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: justinh384
Arguments like this are ridiculous and childish. I have often wanted to leave BITOG after reading garbage such as this. I hate it more than anything when someone asks a simple question and one or two users turn it into an all out war about which product/oil is better. One cannot simply got onto the PCMO forum and ask which oil is better for their situation without being bombarded arguments based solely on "peace of mind". I originally came here to get advice on oil based on scientific and consumer evidence. Now all I see multiple users arguing about what product is better. This can be seen all of the forums here from PCMO to fuel and oil additives.


If you ask 'which oil is better?' on almost any internet forum (or even among friends watching afternoon football), you are likely to ignite a debate of biblical proportion. Sadly, the 'real truth' is that the vast majority of oils are probably quite similar - the 'differences' are creations of the respective oil companies' marketing departments. If you doubt this, go to the Petroleum Quality Institute website and look at the actual additive packages (based on analysis - not hype). The similarities among different brands are amazing.

It seems to me that one valuable function of this forum is to simply report on user experiences with a particular product or group of products. The more details, the better. That is a bit different than an endorsement of the product, although it is comforting if the reporter is using the product. Unfortunately, this type of reporting leaves little room for another type of user with sweeping claims such as 'all additives are junk... waste of money, etc' - particularly when this latter person has little experience with the product, no details to report and little curiosity. I don't intend to advocate for MMO, although I do use it - my experiences can speak for themself. But before someone jumps into a broadside attack on MMO, they might simply note that this product has been around for almost 100 years. It's either a useful product, or else P. T. Barnum should be very proud.

Originally Posted By: justinh384
... I know my post may be ignored because I may or may not be considered a 'qualified' user of the forum because of my less than 1000 posts, but believe me I have been on the forum for nearly six months and am not impressed with some of the arguments that come about. I am not attacking either of the users in this thread.


Ehhhhhh? I don't recall there is a minimum posting threshold required to have an opinion. A better test might be: does it contribute to the discussion.