Pennzoil 5w-20 dino, 96 Saturn SL2, 7300 miles

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Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
11,283
Location
Spring HIll
Oil: Pennzoil 5w-20 SM conventional
Makeup Oil: 2/3qt
Oil Filter: M1-EP, in the vehicle for 13K, changed at this time
Air Filter: K&N
LC and FP used as prescribed.

To me, this is a very good UOA on this car as the insolubles haven't gone above 0.4 (LC is to credit keeping this metric in check). The flash point is 400F...great news for this car. Silicon is coming down nicely, it's from adding silicon to seal the small valve cover gasket leak. Tin is too high IMO, dunno if it's in the problematic range at only 2 PPM.

Previous UOA was with Supertech 5w-30 SM Synth.
Current run is with Amsoil 15w-40 SJ blend and M1-EP filter.


96sl207b.jpg


patriot.gif
 
Awesome UOA, very impressed with the Yellow bottle holding up well for ~7500 miles. Ever think about switching out the K&N Airfilter for a Wix or a Fram? Maybe the Silicon levels may track down a little faster.
 
Looks like a 7500 mile oil to me.

O' ye of faith ..you too can break out of the 3k/3m prison. (visions of Jim Carrey in Liar Liar)

..and the TRUTH will set you free!!!
 
Gary, I've finally broken the 3K mold. It's just and ONLY a mindset.

Deven, I added a thumb-print (or so) size silicon makeshift gasket to stop the valve cover from leaking. I don't believe it's the K&N filter as the high silicon started last UOA when this 'professional' gasket installation occurred.
smile.gif
 
I didn't realize that AdBlock removes linked UOA jpg's. Since HTML code is enabled in the UOA forum (only), it's better to use it than the linked images.

And I'm the guy who asked for HTML to be enabled so I should be using it!
:)







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1996 Saturn SL2

1.9L DOHC

5-speed manual​
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Oil
Sample analysis​
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Oil

Make-up oil

Additives


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Pennzoil 5w-20 dino

2/3 qt

LC & FP
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SuperTech 5w-30 Synth

1/2 qt

LC & FP
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Miles
on Unit​
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173,840​
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166,500​
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Miles
on Sample

Sample Date​
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sdnum="1033;0;MM/DD/YY" align="center">7,312

6/16/07
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sdnum="1033;0;MM/DD/YY" align="center">5,000

3/3/07


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Lab​
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Blackstone​
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Blackstone​
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Aluminum​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">1
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">2

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Chromium​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Iron​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">11
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">9

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Copper​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">3
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align="center">2

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Lead​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Tin​
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align="center">2
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align="center">0

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Moly​
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align="center">183
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align="center">23

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Nickel​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Manganese​
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align="center">0
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0​
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Silver​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Titanium​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Potassium​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Boron​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">19
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">117

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Silicon​
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align="center">31
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align="center">106

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Sodium​
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align="center">2
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align="center">1

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Calcium​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">1662
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">1721

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Magnesium​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">7
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">7

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Phosphorus​
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align="center">624
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align="center">634

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Zinc​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">755
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">681

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Barium​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Antimony​
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n/a​
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align="center">n/a
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Vanadium​
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n/a​
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align="center">n/a
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Fuel​
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Coolant​
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align="center">0
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align="center">0

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Nitration​
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n/a​
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align="center">n/a
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Oxidation​
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n/a​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">n/a
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SUS
Visc 210F​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">51.2
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52.0​
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SUS
Visc 40C​
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n/a​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">n/a
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SUS
VISC 100C​
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n/a​
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align="center">n/a
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Flash
Point​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">400
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">370

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Water​
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align="center">0
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0
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Insolubles​
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align="center">0.4
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align="center">0.4

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TAN​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">n/a
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">n/a

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TBN​
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1.2​
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sdnum="1033;" align="center">n/a
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Tough to beat those results. API SM has been a nice improvement.
 
Really nice report. Old yellow bottle pennzoil really is doing a nice job in your ride. Nice low iron and lead numbers. Looks like 7000 is the limit. Nice.
 
Wow, that is good for 7k in a '96 SL2 (I have a '93 SL2) I just did an oil change with 2 quarts of 5w-20 and 2 quarts of 5w-30 Pennzoil Platinum. Seeing this report I can rest easy that it does no harm and I can run this during the winter without concern. I bought a bunch of PP 5w-20 on clearance from O'Reilly.
 
UOA looks OK. But why did you dig up an OLD UOA, Mr. Quackers?

I want to ask, however, if this is the infamous SL2 engine that tends to sludge up the piston rings? I am not intimately familiar with all the Saturn engines, so I need some help with identification here. If this is NOT the engine in quesiton, then the following comments do not apply.

If so, I would caution you against long OCIs. WHAT???
crazy2.gif
Did Newton just say that???? Yes - I did.

I looked at the SL2 engine in macro-analysis; it's known for sludging the pistons due to ring design, and I noticed that the ONLY predictor to having sludge formation was an uptick in oil consumption. There were no other tell-tale signs; no increase in wear metals, etc. The ONLY thing that will alert you to sludged rings is using more oil. Unfortunately, by the time that signal is present, it's already too late! Now - it's possible that compression is also effected by the sludging, but since Blackstone UOAs don't include compression numbers, that's data I'm not privy to.

Here is the macro data in regard to oil consumption:
3K mile OCI: .3 qrt
4k mile OCI: 1.6 qrt
5k mile OCI: 2.5 qrt
That data comes from almost 150 UOAs over several years. There was never a significant shift in wear metals or insolubles. Only the oil consumption shifts. The data I have is so scarce above 5k miles that I cannot get good statistical numbers; too few samples. At 7.5k miles, there is no ability for me to tell you what the long term effect would be. But looking at the escalation of oil consumption on a curve, it is fair to say it cannot be good ...

What I'm saying is that longer OCIs in this engine may not hurt anything in the short term when looking at wear, but longer sustained OCsI over many multiple events may well lead to sludge on the pistons. And by the time you get increased oil consumption, you've already got sludge.


There are a few schools of thought here; take your pick:
1) stick to 3k mile OCIs with a good detergent lube (PYB should be fine along with any other quality dino product)
2) try longer OCIs with a PAO syn that also has heavy ester dosing (PU perhaps?) and you can perhaps extend a bit
3) use a dino, along with something such as ARX, which has an tri-ester formulation, and you can perhaps extend a bit (although I would use a dose a bit higher than the "normal" maintenance phase amount)

The problem with #2 and #3 is that there really is no data to show how successful this may or may not be. Again, the problem is sludged rings. By the time you get into that high oil consumption, the problem is already afoot.

Turk had/has an SL2 ("creampuff"), and we went around and around about this a few years ago. Perhaps he could shed some light into this situation. I was unaware of the sludge issue until he educated me on it. He was going to use PU at 5k miles, IIRC. By now, he should have some data to show if it's been safe or not, relative to the oil consumption, unless his overall accumlated mileage isn't high enough to show disparity yet.


So - That is why, in this one case, I actually recommend shorter OCIs with a decent dino lube. If you know me (really know me), you realize that I let data and facts drive my decisions. While I am a big proponent of longer OCIs in most cases, this is one where it's probably not prudent. But that is not opinion; it's based upon data. And data does not lie.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Here is the macro data in regard to oil consumption:
3K mile OCI: .3 qrt
4k mile OCI: 1.6 qrt
5k mile OCI: 2.5 qrt

It is pretty remarkable what the data can tell you. That's a very noticeable difference, from having no top up over an oil change to needing to top up at least twice, assuming one uses a threshold of half a quart to one quart minimum top up.
 
I posted this because I was searching for any info of an SL2 running 5w-20 oil. If you review the analysis you2 will see that T&S's engine is in great shape, using 2/3 of a quart in 7k miles. In his engine it is OK to have that OCI, NOT IN MINE. I might go 4k since my engine uses a quart every 1500 miles or so. Am currently running 2 quarts of PP 5w-20 and 2 quarts of PP 5w-30.
 
I hope you're not missing the point I'm trying to make.

If you choose to extend your OCIs, eventually you'll end up sludging the rings, and your consumption will go up. I cannot tell you how long it will take; some of that will depend upon vehicle age, service factors, environment, etc. But what I see from almost 150 UOAs is that OCI duration is THE significant input that affects the output.

What is abundantly clear is that longer OCIs are not a prudent idea with this engine. You can certainly intervene with ester based products (lubes or cleaners), and that will likely help extend the OCI, but I have no ability to tell you how far you can safely extend, because I don't have enough data.

It's true that after 7.5k miles, T&S's car was not using much oil. Yet ...

If your car is using a quart every 1500 miles, then you are already experiencing the sludging most likely. It would be my recommendation you consider a few applications of ARX over a few shorter OCIs, and see if you cannot wash away some of the build up. Try an application at 2.5k miles, then a rinse at 2.5k miles. Repeat if necessary.

Caveat Emptor.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3


I want to ask, however, if this is the infamous SL2 engine that tends to sludge up the piston rings? I am not intimately familiar with all the Saturn engines, so I need some help with identification here. If this is NOT the engine in quesiton, then the following comments do not apply.




This is indeed one of the notorious Oil burning Saturns. However.. I do not believe it to be the length of the OCI to cause this particular issue, at least just not that one factor.. These engines have a "Design Flaw" if you will... Most pistons have oil drain back holes drilled in them.. however.. Saturns do not. Oil gets caught in-between the rings, and has no where to go.. so it just sludges on the oil control rings, since it cannot drain back into the sump the oil is trapped and it burns/sludges, and causes the oil control rings to stick.

If I had a Saturn that was NOT burning oil, I would use the best quality synthetic I could buy at a regular store, like PU, and try 6000 mile oci's(for normal non-severe driving) and cross my fingers, some of them burn, some do not.

I do agree that at least a modest OCI is called for.. because if the oil gets used past its prime it will sludge easier.. if this happens the rings are as good as stuck. If a Saturn is burning oil(like mine) just keep an eye on the oil level, it will run forever. The only fix I know of that works most of the time is to pull the pistons, drill drain-back holes and install new rings.. quiet a job on these little engines.
 
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I never said OCI duration was the cause of the sludge; I already indicated the ring issue.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I looked at the SL2 engine in macro-analysis; it's known for sludging the pistons due to ring design, and I noticed that the ONLY predictor to having sludge formation was an uptick in oil consumption.


Unless you tear down the engine, and put new rings with a different design in them, this will ALWAYS be a contributor and the root cause.

What I also said was that the OCI is a controlling factor in the formation of slugde; it is the variable we can control easily. It is the means by which we can avoid sludge formation. I agree that using a PAO/ester syn will retard the formation, but it cannot eliminate it. And, as I mentioned, there is not enough information to know where that critical point is at; too little data. Same can be said for ester based cleaners. They can both likely extend the OCI safely, but we don't know to what length.

What we do know is that using a good quality conventional lube out to 3k miles is easily doable, and safe over the long term; the data supports this conclusion. The data also shows that continued OCIs of longer duration are a risk. Where the expensive alternatives fit in the middle is anyone's guess, because there are no credible facts to point to.

In summation, unless one changes the rings to a new design, the only way to avoid sludge is to manipulate the OCI duration; it is the easily controlled variable that clearly shows effect in oil consumption resulting from stuck rings.
 
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Old UOA, buy my favorite here
laugh.gif


I disagree that UOA's in such applications lead to sludged up rings & such, even in this 1.9L design.

Google for an Amsoil-only SL1 (IIRC) car that went well over 300K with Amsoil changed every 36K, filters every 12K. Don't believe the guy ever posted here. Amazing really.


Back to this Saturn. LC used for a long while, the interior of the engine was new, I'm sure the pistons and rings were just as new-looking. There are pics at 165K and 185K on here somewhere. LC works, keeps sludge away, even in extended OCIs.

Then again, todays oils are not the oils of yesteryear, especially good synthetics which are designed to withstand some of the nastiest engine design variables.


Alas, the car was sold. RIP this old Saturn.
 
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
How many miles were on the odometer when it was sold? also, LC?


I'm thinking LC = Lube Control.
Lube Control

ToyotaNSaturn - If you recall, what was your consumption like when you sold it? Did you run ~7K OCI the life of your ownership and how long did you own it?
 
Sold it around 188K or so.

LC used from about the 100K mark onward.

Oil consumption was about 0.5/qts for this run IIRC. PZ 5w-20 burned minimally in this application. Surprising for such a thin oil.
 
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