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#3194837 - 11/22/13 01:15 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
No way would I want to be riding around with anhydrous ammonia. You get a leak and you could not get out of the car fast enough.
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#3194838 - 11/22/13 01:15 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: sdowney717]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7576
Loc: Upper Midwest
What pressures are you talking about? If it has a tank of compressed hydrogen then it will just stay that way like any tank. Are you talking about producing hydrogen gas onboard by some process? What process?

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Car still must have a source of hydrogen in a tank.
Where does the hydrogen go when the car is sitting and the pressures build up?
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#3194840 - 11/22/13 01:18 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: A_Harman]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7576
Loc: Upper Midwest
That would be an even more inefficient method of production.

But come on - tanks of liquified ammonia driving around? Imagine a breach during an accident at a crowded intersection. People would be dead all over.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
There is another form of Hydrogen that is being considered for use as a fuel: anhydrous ammonia (NH3). Its main advantage is that it is stored as a liquid (moderately pressurized like LPG) on the vehicle, so the main problem of gaseous storage of high-pressure H2 is avoided. Just do an Internet search using "ammonia fueled engines", and you can read up on it.
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#3194853 - 11/22/13 01:35 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
All the crack heads would be stealing the NH4 for their cracker factories.
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#3194864 - 11/22/13 01:40 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 9600
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
What pressures are you talking about? If it has a tank of compressed hydrogen then it will just stay that way like any tank.


Exactly.

The molecules aren't any better than helium in regards to being escape artists.

If you're talking a liquid H2 storage tank, those are vacuum insulated, and often with an insulation wrapping or 'blown-in' (micro-cell) in the annular space.

Those will hold the liquid and gas off very little. Still would be an issue onboard a vehicle.
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#3195041 - 11/22/13 05:21 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
One of the problems with windmills is what to do with the power when it's not needed. I think this would work well with some H2 production.


That's when you turn the coal power stations down to minimum load.

I sort of partly agree with you, as a few years ago in Oz, the wholesale prices were going negative overnight. I wrote an internal discussion paper about using the -ve priced electricity (they would pay you to use it), make hydrogen, and pump it into the NG main for our gas turbines for use later.

Hopelessly inefficient, cycle wise, but if you are paying tens of grand an hour to keep the units at min load, you at least get something back

Got laughed at...then last year, India started augmenting their NG with hydrogen, as it's easier to pump it into an existing gas pipeline than run feeders.

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#3195044 - 11/22/13 05:24 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: sdowney717]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
If it is a tank of hydrogen, then it has to gas off to relive pressure.
So in a week or so a full tank is empty.


For liquid storage you have to offgas to maintain the temperatures. gaseous, 3000psi doesn't give you much energy density for a big heavy tank.

In the 80s, NiMH storage systems were going to be big. Toyo Kogoyo were heavily into hydrogen, as the octane requirements of the wankel were very suited to burning hydrogen.

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#3195048 - 11/22/13 05:27 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: A_Harman]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
There is another form of Hydrogen that is being considered for use as a fuel: anhydrous ammonia (NH3). Its main advantage is that it is stored as a liquid (moderately pressurized like LPG) on the vehicle, so the main problem of gaseous storage of high-pressure H2 is avoided. Just do an Internet search using "ammonia fueled engines", and you can read up on it.


Anhydrous ammonia is being phased out industrially where it can due to the safety of the stuff...automobiles missed the boat on that one (thankfully).

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#3195055 - 11/22/13 05:40 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
One of the problems with windmills is what to do with the power when it's not needed. I think this would work well with some H2 production.


That's when you turn the coal power stations down to minimum load.

I sort of partly agree with you, as a few years ago in Oz, the wholesale prices were going negative overnight. I wrote an internal discussion paper about using the -ve priced electricity (they would pay you to use it), make hydrogen, and pump it into the NG main for our gas turbines for use later.

Hopelessly inefficient, cycle wise, but if you are paying tens of grand an hour to keep the units at min load, you at least get something back

Got laughed at...then last year, India started augmenting their NG with hydrogen, as it's easier to pump it into an existing gas pipeline than run feeders.


Around me they are closing down the coal generators, at least most of them. There a quite a few nukes here in Illinois though.

Downstate they just went on line the cleanest and most efficient coal plant in the world.

THE FUTURE OF ENERGY

There also are 1000s of windmils as well as the nukes.

Here is the LaSalle nuke plant in Illinois, it's surrounded by windmills.



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#3195098 - 11/22/13 06:28 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
GFC cut the heart out of electricity, dropping peak load in Oz by 40%...Solar and wind had an impact, but nothing like the GFC.

Stimulus TVs were LCD, dropping a couple hundred watts of power consumption, and another 100 watts of cooling in many houses.

For scale in the pic, those wind turbines combined wouldn't drive a feed pump in the power station...

As to the most efficient coal station in the world, I doubt it...the advertised technologies are 60s stuff.

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#3195266 - 11/22/13 09:41 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
GFC cut the heart out of electricity, dropping peak load in Oz by 40%...Solar and wind had an impact, but nothing like the GFC.

Stimulus TVs were LCD, dropping a couple hundred watts of power consumption, and another 100 watts of cooling in many houses.

For scale in the pic, those wind turbines combined wouldn't drive a feed pump in the power station...

As to the most efficient coal station in the world, I doubt it...the advertised technologies are 60s stuff.


Nonsense.

There are a couple hundred 1.5MW wind turbines there. And the coal generator is over 92% efficient. Coal mine is on site so no transportation cost.
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#3195271 - 11/22/13 09:50 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
92% ?

I'll see your nonsense, and raise absolute bollocks...

Where on earth did you even get the concept that the coal generator could be over. 50 ?

Show me the source and I'll call them a liar
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#3195276 - 11/22/13 09:56 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
I went on a tour of this plant last month. My power coop is an 8% partner in the plant.

The exhaust is only water and CO2. Puts out 877 gross Mwh and runs at around 93% efficiency, putting out 809 Mwh per generator. There are two generators but one was down for scheduled maintenance.

You can go here for more but you have to register. 50% indeed. They shut down at least 5 plants in Illinois that were in that range last year.

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=126116&highlight=coal+generator
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#3195285 - 11/22/13 10:08 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35944
Loc: Oz
You need to do some reading on thermal power cycles.

92 could be the turbine/ generator efficiency, but there will be 1200mw each unit lost to the cooling system

Efficiency will be less than 50

And no power station that they are closing down will be anywhere near 50...ever

Google 'high efficiency coal china' and you can see what can be done... And it's not 90%

Google 'Carnot efficiency' and you can find out why.

Just had a thought .. Do you have district heating ?
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#3195287 - 11/22/13 10:12 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 4542
Loc: Illinois
Did you not look at the original link? And google coal plants shut down in Illinois last year.
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