House electrical problem has me frustrated..

[eljefino]

Does your mom have insurance? Is there a local code enforcement officer? I suspect no on both counts, so live and let live. When it comes to estate time, you have plausible deniability about the house's condition.

IDK how you'd replace the asbestos if you got rid of it, maybe T-111 siding (that's basically painted, patterned plywood).

It's a desert. Can you dig a hole and bury anything you want gone? It won't wreck the groundwater or anything.

 

[eljefino]

BTW, what brand are the breakers? Check out the compliance label on your breaker box to see what kinds it'll take.

Maybe you just have lousy defective breakers that trip too soon? They're only a few bucks to replace.

Take the "grid" cover off the breakers and look around inside. Make sure you don't have two black wires on one breaker. It's not "unsafe" but hackery just the same and means you potentially have twice the stuff to trip the breaker.

What are your big inside power consumers? Do you have 220V electric stove/ dryer/ AC?

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
BTW, what brand are the breakers? Check out the compliance label on your breaker box to see what kinds it'll take.

Maybe you just have lousy defective breakers that trip too soon? They're only a few bucks to replace.

Take the "grid" cover off the breakers and look around inside. Make sure you don't have two black wires on one breaker. It's not "unsafe" but hackery just the same and means you potentially have twice the stuff to trip the breaker.

What are your big inside power consumers? Do you have 220V electric stove/ dryer/ AC?


I believe having two wires on one breaker is a code violation because the breaker isn't rated for two wires. There are actually some breakers that are set up to take two wires. Basically UL tests the breaker with one wire, not with two and therefore it's not approved for use with two wires. Has nothing to do with twice the stuff because technically if I recall the NEC correctly can have up to 15 outlets on one circuit, haven't read it lately though so it might have changed. Also if you have the panel off, you can make sure the black wire on the breaker is tight, if it's loose, it might cause it to trip more frequently, also make sure it's cooper, I doubt if it's aluminum, but if the wiring is crazy, anything is possible. Also if the invidual breaker is tripping, having an electric stove/dryer/ac wouldn't really mean much because they'd probably be on separate dedicated circuits, I believe he said his 15/20 amp circuits were tripping and he couldn't find a main on the panel.

 

[Chris142]

The breakers are behind that panel but there's no main. I gotta flip em all if I want to turn of everything. Everything except the stove is electric including moms oxygen generator. I'm 100% posative that its asbestos siding. We knew what it was just didn't know how much it would effect projects

 

[JayhawkRoy]

Get a second opinion on the electrician's concerns about the asbestos. There are several mitigation strategies that don't involve removal of the siding. I would think drilling holes to place boxes, etc onto the house exterior would be allowed and does not require complete mitigation of structurally sound siding. There may be some extra precautions required, but the electrical work should be able to get done without siding replacement/removal. This Old House.com has a good summary about asbestos siding mitigation strategies. I would review that FAQ first.

Check with your local county building inspectors to find out what the restrictions may be and I would also contact other electricians for their evaluation. I don't doubt that you have some major electrical wiring issues that may need to be dealt with, given the history and age of the house.

 

[JHZR2]

After seeing the pic, I'm still not sure what's wrong.

Notionally of one found a modern box that fit the hole, just replace the box, leave the siding alone, and run another wire to a subpanel someplace else (with say 100A worth of service) so you have more flexibility.

One should be able to finagle the effects already installed on the house (no cutting, new drilling, etc) without the lot turning into a superfund site or anyone getting lung cancer...

 

[DoiInthanon]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
After seeing the pic, I'm still not sure what's wrong.

Notionally of one found a modern box that fit the hole, just replace the box, leave the siding alone, and run another wire to a subpanel someplace else (with say 100A worth of service) so you have more flexibility.

One should be able to finagle the effects already installed on the house (no cutting, new drilling, etc) without the lot turning into a superfund site or anyone getting lung cancer...
+1

If you are talented enough to weld, mechanic your Jeep, and be on BITOG

, then you can learn the necessary information to safely install an exterior rain tight panel with new breakers.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: eljefino
BTW, what brand are the breakers? Check out the compliance label on your breaker box to see what kinds it'll take.

Maybe you just have lousy defective breakers that trip too soon? They're only a few bucks to replace.

Take the "grid" cover off the breakers and look around inside. Make sure you don't have two black wires on one breaker. It's not "unsafe" but hackery just the same and means you potentially have twice the stuff to trip the breaker.

What are your big inside power consumers? Do you have 220V electric stove/ dryer/ AC?


I believe having two wires on one breaker is a code violation because the breaker isn't rated for two wires. There are actually some breakers that are set up to take two wires. Basically UL tests the breaker with one wire, not with two and therefore it's not approved for use with two wires. Has nothing to do with twice the stuff because technically if I recall the NEC correctly can have up to 15 outlets on one circuit, haven't read it lately though so it might have changed. Also if you have the panel off, you can make sure the black wire on the breaker is tight, if it's loose, it might cause it to trip more frequently, also make sure it's cooper, I doubt if it's aluminum, but if the wiring is crazy, anything is possible. Also if the invidual breaker is tripping, having an electric stove/dryer/ac wouldn't really mean much because they'd probably be on separate dedicated circuits, I believe he said his 15/20 amp circuits were tripping and he couldn't find a main on the panel.


Right on all counts. Here's my line of thinking though:

Initial service might be a 60 or 100 amp service sized for no huge loads.

Huge loads come in and they're out of breaker space, so they combine, say, a bedroom and the kitchen that previously were on two breakers into one. Since the bedroom and kitchen were wired with the assumption they would be on their own breaker, the "doubling down" has things closer to overloading the breaker, but not the wire.

So I'm just looking for a baseline.

I think OP would be well served by those double breaker things if his box will take them.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

Right on all counts. Here's my line of thinking though:

Initial service might be a 60 or 100 amp service sized for no huge loads.

Huge loads come in and they're out of breaker space, so they combine, say, a bedroom and the kitchen that previously were on two breakers into one. Since the bedroom and kitchen were wired with the assumption they would be on their own breaker, the "doubling down" has things closer to overloading the breaker, but not the wire.

So I'm just looking for a baseline.

I think OP would be well served by those double breaker things if his box will take them.


You're sorta on the right track, but not exactly. Maybe you don't realize it, but when you have a 60 or 100 amp service, that's two hot wires at 120 plus the neutral/ground wire. A/C power is a sine wave so when you add two sine waves together you get 240. Most things you were talking about, the stove, A/C, dryer are 240 volt circuits. Also a dryer is typically 30 amps, stove is 40-50 amps and A/C could be 20 amps but at 240. Wire gauges for those would be in the 10, 8, 6 range with the 20 amp being just 12 gauge. You just don't put those onto a 15 or 20 amp single pole breaker which is what a typical outlet is wired up to. Those higher loads are all double pole breakers which is why they're 240 volt. He's basically looking for a tandem breaker that takes one slot. You're also supposed to use the same brand as again UL only tests the panel with the manufacturers's breakers unless the manufacturer certifies that their breaker will work in other panels. Cutler Hammer does that to some of their breakers. The large loads you're thinking of would either trip the double pole breaker that they should be on or would trip the main. As there doesn't appear to be a main, then there's no tripping of the main panel and I guess it's a fire hazard not to have one, but remember, drawing 60 or 100 amps at 240 volts is a lot of power. I find it hard to believe that there actually isn't one as the power company usually wants the main shut off if the power is ever shut off and then turned back on, but if that hasn't happened in a long time I guess anything is possible.

 

[eljefino]

^ no I absolutely get it. If a new "big thing" comes in and he's out of slots TWO other things need to move.

OP says his house is already a hack, but we don't know what lays behind the door. He says his well is on two, 20 amp breakers and being in the desert he probably needs a 230 volt "pusher" deep buried well head motor. That it's not on a single 230 volt breaker with one handle taking up two slots is already pretty dodgy.

Anyhow, I'm just trying to cajole the OP into getting us a picture of the inside, and placing bets on what will be found in there.

 

[Win]

Those are definitely asbestos shingles, and, for the most part, asbestos is pretty bad news.

I don't have any experience with it in a residential structure, but I had to remediate a commercial building full of it about eight years ago and, at that time, the options were basically remove it, encapsulate it, or barrier it off.

I chose to remove it which is the best way to go, imo, once and done and no more worries. And afaik the owner of a hazardous substance is liable for it until it's lawful destruction so the people telling you to jake leg it are offering up some really bad advice, imho.

I haven't seen anything like that electrical setup and there is probably also aluminum wire in there.

It looks like you have a block wall off to the side? If it's big enough, I'd look at maybe setting a new meter base there with a 200 amp service, a main breaker and a new 40 circuit panel. Then try to run feeds from the new panel into that old thing and join up with your existing wiring. Run new circuits as necessary from the new panel.

This would be a kludge, but could probably be made to meet codes and be safe and avoid disturbance of that asbestos.

Alternatively, you might be able to have a pole set by your garage, and mount a meter base, panel, and some outlets on the pole. That's what I did at my little car shop and it's perfectly legal and works very well. Given your circumstances, that is probably your best and least expensive solution to your immediate problem.

Of course the best way is to have a reputable certified asbestos contractor remove that siding and re side and rewire the dwelling. You likely can't even legally bulldoze the place with that siding in place.

They constantly tweak these enviro regs so I would look into it before you do anything. There may be some subsidies or grants available since it is a residence.

 

[Chris142]

I've found an electrition to do the work. He says that as long as the asbestos siding we are messing with is less than xxx sq ft we can work on it. He's running the conduit now, going to put a 220 outlet out there and rewire my compressor for 220. It's not going to be cheap . Whole lot more than I was hoping for

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: cmorr
If this is going to be a long term arrangement. I would first call your power company and see about another service (second meter) on the garage.


This seems to be a good alternative.

BTW Chris, we had similar looking shingles when I lived in a St. Louis suburb, but they turned out to be concrete shingles.

 

[Chris142]

Oh it's asbestos shingles. We knew about it since 1974 when my dad bought the house. I had just not realized how much of a problem they can be plus our butchered wiring. This guy is doing it right anyway.

It's just frustrating when what should be a simple job turns into a night mare.

 

[Chris142]

Oh, We have determined that the curant wiring for the garage is connected to a outlet in my mothers bedroom. All the outlets and the garage are on one 20a breaker. Thats why I cant run my compressor on the curant outlets in the garage.

 

[eljefino]

^ Hmm, unless your Mom has 600 watts of stuff running in her bedroom, the garage should still work.

Try replacing the breaker... Even if you're cutting the garage off from the bedroom.