I typed out various responses to this thread. What vehicle, what type of use, season etc. Here is one answer that will satisfy a few: Do you want Jack Daniels? Or bourbon from a plastic bottle?
Why even use conventional oil anymore?
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Originally Posted By: stchman
You do agree that synthetics can go for longer OCIs than conventional.
The only thing I agree on is that BITOGER'S as a rule change their oil a lot more than necessary and often because of "feelings". Then will boast about using "synthetic" oil in their internal combustion engine with little data and even less benefit of using a "synthetic" oils because of "feel".
You do agree that synthetics can go for longer OCIs than conventional.
The only thing I agree on is that BITOGER'S as a rule change their oil a lot more than necessary and often because of "feelings". Then will boast about using "synthetic" oil in their internal combustion engine with little data and even less benefit of using a "synthetic" oils because of "feel".
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
So stchman, tell me, for what possible reason would I want to waste money on synthetics?
It would only be a waste if you did not run the oil to zero life which in the case of a synthetic would normally be more than double that of conventional. However, the price difference between the two is not always double and therefore it would not be a waste of money, but instead savings.
I agree wholeheartedly if a person extends the oil change interval otherwise why bother.
There are many factors to consider,first is cost. I haven't paid full price for a jug of oil in years,so in reality I'm buying ultra for the price of PYB.
Now throw in that ultra can run out to 15000 miles pretty easily in most vehicles under most driving conditions but there are exceptions,but I'm not one of them.
Under these conditions using a synthetic is an absolute no brainer. However my bikes are all using conventional rotella and its a cost based choice.
I'm not comfortable running any oil beyond 5000-6000 miles in my Harley. At start up the pistons are very loose so rest assured fuel intrusion is occurring.
Now let's consider that the oil can achieve 300f temps pretty fast in slow moving traffic but once the road opens up the oil cooler drops the temps to 200f,so that extremely quick temp fluctuation coupled with oil getting fuel diluted and evaporated in a short time means the oil is getting worked pretty hard,and I'm just not comfortable with the 10000 miles I'd have to ride if I was going to use a synthetic.
I'm also disgusted with these v-twin oils with tags at 16-20 bucks a quart. I get rotella for less than 5. In fact I'd need to get 15000 miles out of a v-twin oil for it to become cost equivalent,and I've seen used oil analysis where rotella was still serviceable after 5000 miles so I've picked that number as my safe cut off,and the cost doesn't bug me while I'm riding and enjoying myself. If I was still paying 70 an oil change with filter that's all I'd be able to talk,and rant about.
So in conclusion both forms have their place. Different applications as well as cost are factors that need to be considered if one wants to feel as though they've made the best decision they could have.
I'm not going to sacrifice protection because I'm cheap however I will explore every avenue available to me and when I can achieve comparable performance for less money,even if it means more time wrenching as long as my cost per mile is lower than the alternative then I call that winning.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
So stchman, tell me, for what possible reason would I want to waste money on synthetics?
It would only be a waste if you did not run the oil to zero life which in the case of a synthetic would normally be more than double that of conventional. However, the price difference between the two is not always double and therefore it would not be a waste of money, but instead savings.
I agree wholeheartedly if a person extends the oil change interval otherwise why bother.
There are many factors to consider,first is cost. I haven't paid full price for a jug of oil in years,so in reality I'm buying ultra for the price of PYB.
Now throw in that ultra can run out to 15000 miles pretty easily in most vehicles under most driving conditions but there are exceptions,but I'm not one of them.
Under these conditions using a synthetic is an absolute no brainer. However my bikes are all using conventional rotella and its a cost based choice.
I'm not comfortable running any oil beyond 5000-6000 miles in my Harley. At start up the pistons are very loose so rest assured fuel intrusion is occurring.
Now let's consider that the oil can achieve 300f temps pretty fast in slow moving traffic but once the road opens up the oil cooler drops the temps to 200f,so that extremely quick temp fluctuation coupled with oil getting fuel diluted and evaporated in a short time means the oil is getting worked pretty hard,and I'm just not comfortable with the 10000 miles I'd have to ride if I was going to use a synthetic.
I'm also disgusted with these v-twin oils with tags at 16-20 bucks a quart. I get rotella for less than 5. In fact I'd need to get 15000 miles out of a v-twin oil for it to become cost equivalent,and I've seen used oil analysis where rotella was still serviceable after 5000 miles so I've picked that number as my safe cut off,and the cost doesn't bug me while I'm riding and enjoying myself. If I was still paying 70 an oil change with filter that's all I'd be able to talk,and rant about.
So in conclusion both forms have their place. Different applications as well as cost are factors that need to be considered if one wants to feel as though they've made the best decision they could have.
I'm not going to sacrifice protection because I'm cheap however I will explore every avenue available to me and when I can achieve comparable performance for less money,even if it means more time wrenching as long as my cost per mile is lower than the alternative then I call that winning.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most oil changes aren't done at home with oil purchased at a discount or auto parts store. They're mostly at quick-lube places, dealers, and general repair shops. They get exceptional prices for bulk oil meeting the API SN spec. My folks tell me about how they can get a complete oil change for $15. I'm not convinced they're using a top-shelf conventional oil, the filter was a basic Champ quickie-lube special, and I don't think they used a new crush washer since the OEM gasket I saw when I changed the oil isn't something they're likely to carry.
However, this kind of service and parts is "good enough" for most people. If someone shops based on price and/or convenience, are they going to go to Jiffy Lube for the $25 basic oil change with coupon or pay an additional $20 to $30 for Pennzoil Platinum? It may sound like a $5 to $8 difference to the DIYer, but it's not to the car owner taking it to a shop and paying a flat rate for 5 quarts of oil. And then there's paying a flat rate for synthetic oil even with small oil sump.
And for the vast majority that will work out just fine for them. They will still get the 150-200k out of the engine (as long as they keep oil levels fine), they feel like they are taking care of the vehicle, and the shop makes their $0.02.
I'd even venture to say that most cars don't care what oil is in them as long as it's clean and changed regularly. It's when you start neglecting it that sludge builds up and that's the real engine killer, not old oil.
Most oil changes aren't done at home with oil purchased at a discount or auto parts store. They're mostly at quick-lube places, dealers, and general repair shops. They get exceptional prices for bulk oil meeting the API SN spec. My folks tell me about how they can get a complete oil change for $15. I'm not convinced they're using a top-shelf conventional oil, the filter was a basic Champ quickie-lube special, and I don't think they used a new crush washer since the OEM gasket I saw when I changed the oil isn't something they're likely to carry.
However, this kind of service and parts is "good enough" for most people. If someone shops based on price and/or convenience, are they going to go to Jiffy Lube for the $25 basic oil change with coupon or pay an additional $20 to $30 for Pennzoil Platinum? It may sound like a $5 to $8 difference to the DIYer, but it's not to the car owner taking it to a shop and paying a flat rate for 5 quarts of oil. And then there's paying a flat rate for synthetic oil even with small oil sump.
And for the vast majority that will work out just fine for them. They will still get the 150-200k out of the engine (as long as they keep oil levels fine), they feel like they are taking care of the vehicle, and the shop makes their $0.02.
I'd even venture to say that most cars don't care what oil is in them as long as it's clean and changed regularly. It's when you start neglecting it that sludge builds up and that's the real engine killer, not old oil.
Originally Posted By: 555
I typed out various responses to this thread. What vehicle, what type of use, season etc. Here is one answer that will satisfy a few: Do you want Jack Daniels? Or bourbon from a plastic bottle?
If the sole purpose is to get wasted, the answer doesn't matter and the JD is a waste of money. Nor does it matter if it is for my bulimic girlfriend.
The more I read and the more I learn, the more I realize that my vehicle is far more likely to die from a wreck, rust, or transmission failure than engine failure.
I typed out various responses to this thread. What vehicle, what type of use, season etc. Here is one answer that will satisfy a few: Do you want Jack Daniels? Or bourbon from a plastic bottle?
If the sole purpose is to get wasted, the answer doesn't matter and the JD is a waste of money. Nor does it matter if it is for my bulimic girlfriend.
The more I read and the more I learn, the more I realize that my vehicle is far more likely to die from a wreck, rust, or transmission failure than engine failure.
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Originally Posted By: strat81
The more I read and the more I learn, the more I realize that my vehicle is far more likely to die from a wreck, rust, or transmission failure than engine failure.
Yup. Some of us could surely find something more important to worry about, but then BITOG would cease to exist.
The more I read and the more I learn, the more I realize that my vehicle is far more likely to die from a wreck, rust, or transmission failure than engine failure.
Yup. Some of us could surely find something more important to worry about, but then BITOG would cease to exist.
You can run basically any oil to 5k interval, no prob. This includes conventional.
IMHO, it is BEYOND the 5000-6000 mile mark you may want a synthetic. Maybe about 7500mi max on conventional, just reading a lot of posts here and regurgitating what I read with all the oils, and how long MOST people run it out for.
So.. Why use synthetic, unless you KNEW you had an application that would help???
Some even use conventional in turbo apps!
IMHO, it is BEYOND the 5000-6000 mile mark you may want a synthetic. Maybe about 7500mi max on conventional, just reading a lot of posts here and regurgitating what I read with all the oils, and how long MOST people run it out for.
So.. Why use synthetic, unless you KNEW you had an application that would help???
Some even use conventional in turbo apps!
Nobody's asking my opinion but personally I buy whatever is on sale. Call me a deal hog. If an oil is on clearance, I buy it. If it's an unbeatable deal, I buy it. Doesn't matter the brand (unless it's house oil, I don't buy house brands except for Napa). Sometimes even if it's out of grade like 10w40. I can always mix it.
I have about a 50/50 stash of conventional and synthetic. I group blends (which I have many) into conventional so most of my oil is really synthetic.
Those Next Gen promos a couple years back really have me stocked up well. I counted roughly 25 quarts left and I've used about 4 or 5 oil changes worth of them. Also the Purolator Metal Wars promo I bought TONS of P1 filters. I have about a dozen for each vehicle.
The best deal I found lately was when Kendall Syn Blend was on clearance at O'Reilly for $1.99/qt. I bought all they had left.
I have about a 50/50 stash of conventional and synthetic. I group blends (which I have many) into conventional so most of my oil is really synthetic.
Those Next Gen promos a couple years back really have me stocked up well. I counted roughly 25 quarts left and I've used about 4 or 5 oil changes worth of them. Also the Purolator Metal Wars promo I bought TONS of P1 filters. I have about a dozen for each vehicle.
The best deal I found lately was when Kendall Syn Blend was on clearance at O'Reilly for $1.99/qt. I bought all they had left.
I'm wondering why so much of the talk about extending drain intervals centers on how the base oil is marketed. I understand that volatility and oil thinning/thickening is an issue, but the biggest issue centers on the robustness of the additive package. There have been some so-called synthetic oils where the additive package was designed for about the same service life as typical conventional oils.
For years the OTR trucking industry performed extended drains with heavy duty "conventional" oils such as Shell Rotella T, Delvac 1300, Valvoline Premium Blue, or Chevron Delo 400. Part of it was probably the low viscosity spread of a typical 15W-40 requiring less VI improver (which breaks down). However, it also has to do with using an additive package that's designed to keep the oil suitable for continued use.
I've heard there used to be specific extended drain oils before anyone had heard of the term "synthetic" used to describe motor oil. Heck - I remember when there was talk that the Franz (toilet-paper) oil filter would allow one to never have to perform a full drain. Of course the periodic filter (aka toilet paper roll) change necessitated adding fresh oil, which removed some of the oil oil and added fresh additives.
For years the OTR trucking industry performed extended drains with heavy duty "conventional" oils such as Shell Rotella T, Delvac 1300, Valvoline Premium Blue, or Chevron Delo 400. Part of it was probably the low viscosity spread of a typical 15W-40 requiring less VI improver (which breaks down). However, it also has to do with using an additive package that's designed to keep the oil suitable for continued use.
I've heard there used to be specific extended drain oils before anyone had heard of the term "synthetic" used to describe motor oil. Heck - I remember when there was talk that the Franz (toilet-paper) oil filter would allow one to never have to perform a full drain. Of course the periodic filter (aka toilet paper roll) change necessitated adding fresh oil, which removed some of the oil oil and added fresh additives.
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Yes - I agree that you are one case where synthetic makes little sense. OTH, if you're changing dino with 200 miles on it every 6 months - IMO that's crazy. I would like to see any warranty company argue that in court that 7 months and 250 miles on your oil caused any oil related failure on your engine. Even once a year is probably too often with those kind of miles. But back to the argument of synthetic vs dino. The synthetic appeal to me is not having to change the oil. What's your time worth? I don't like changing oil, synthetic is worth it in most cases.
Both original and extended warranty policies are dictated by Toyota in this case. I agree it's a waste of perfectly good oil (and money) but I'm not about to take a chance and don't wish to challenge Toyota in court. As far as changing oil I quit doing that myself when I bought the car in 2009, it goes to the dealer. Next month it goes in for oil & filter change #10 and has less than 15,500 miles. Ridiculous? Yes it is but there is no choice.
Yes - I agree that you are one case where synthetic makes little sense. OTH, if you're changing dino with 200 miles on it every 6 months - IMO that's crazy. I would like to see any warranty company argue that in court that 7 months and 250 miles on your oil caused any oil related failure on your engine. Even once a year is probably too often with those kind of miles. But back to the argument of synthetic vs dino. The synthetic appeal to me is not having to change the oil. What's your time worth? I don't like changing oil, synthetic is worth it in most cases.
Both original and extended warranty policies are dictated by Toyota in this case. I agree it's a waste of perfectly good oil (and money) but I'm not about to take a chance and don't wish to challenge Toyota in court. As far as changing oil I quit doing that myself when I bought the car in 2009, it goes to the dealer. Next month it goes in for oil & filter change #10 and has less than 15,500 miles. Ridiculous? Yes it is but there is no choice.
I'm with the poster who buys any brand oil on sale. My truck has yet to ask me which brand I'm using. Not on the synth band wagon either, all my vehicles run great with good old dino.
Who started the rumor that oils are only good for 5K miles? Neither of my three vehicles recommend those oil changes unless you're driving a mile a day and who does that? Both my cars say 7.5K on recommend weight of oil, my truck says use the OLM or 10K miles.
That's what I do
SP
Who started the rumor that oils are only good for 5K miles? Neither of my three vehicles recommend those oil changes unless you're driving a mile a day and who does that? Both my cars say 7.5K on recommend weight of oil, my truck says use the OLM or 10K miles.
That's what I do
SP
Originally Posted By: Suzuki Phil
I'm with the poster who buys any brand oil on sale. My truck has yet to ask me which brand I'm using. Not on the synth band wagon either, all my vehicles run great with good old dino.
Who started the rumor that oils are only good for 5K miles? Neither of my three vehicles recommend those oil changes unless you're driving a mile a day and who does that? Both my cars say 7.5K on recommend weight of oil, my truck says use the OLM or 10K miles.
That's what I do
SP
Mobil actually markets Super 5000 as "5000 miles of protection", although their oil warranty terms have the addendum "or the manufacturer's recommended interval, whichever is greater". Quaker State had an engine warranty that required the user to change oil at least every 3000 miles. Pennzoil used to have ads touting how important it was to change the oil every 3000 miles. I remember one where they had an owner of a pickup that served as a lead vehicle for transporting oversized loads. The owner said that she always changed it at 3000 mile intervals with Pennzoil. Pennzoil owned Jiffy Lube and Quaker State owned Q-Lube, and both prominently recommended 3000 mile oil change intervals. Even after they merged and then were purchased by Shell, they would slap reminder stickers to change at 3000 miles.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I'm with the poster who buys any brand oil on sale. My truck has yet to ask me which brand I'm using. Not on the synth band wagon either, all my vehicles run great with good old dino.
Who started the rumor that oils are only good for 5K miles? Neither of my three vehicles recommend those oil changes unless you're driving a mile a day and who does that? Both my cars say 7.5K on recommend weight of oil, my truck says use the OLM or 10K miles.
That's what I do
SP
Mobil actually markets Super 5000 as "5000 miles of protection", although their oil warranty terms have the addendum "or the manufacturer's recommended interval, whichever is greater". Quaker State had an engine warranty that required the user to change oil at least every 3000 miles. Pennzoil used to have ads touting how important it was to change the oil every 3000 miles. I remember one where they had an owner of a pickup that served as a lead vehicle for transporting oversized loads. The owner said that she always changed it at 3000 mile intervals with Pennzoil. Pennzoil owned Jiffy Lube and Quaker State owned Q-Lube, and both prominently recommended 3000 mile oil change intervals. Even after they merged and then were purchased by Shell, they would slap reminder stickers to change at 3000 miles.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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Originally Posted By: y_p_w
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The linked page had another link to a website that will allow you to check what OCI you can use for your respective vehicle. It seems to be "set" to the normal use interval recommended by the OEM. i.e. my FX4 can go up to 7,500 miles on a normal duty schedule and the website also reflected that same number.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The linked page had another link to a website that will allow you to check what OCI you can use for your respective vehicle. It seems to be "set" to the normal use interval recommended by the OEM. i.e. my FX4 can go up to 7,500 miles on a normal duty schedule and the website also reflected that same number.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The linked page had another link to a website that will allow you to check what OCI you can use for your respective vehicle. It seems to be "set" to the normal use interval recommended by the OEM. i.e. my FX4 can go up to 7,500 miles on a normal duty schedule and the website also reflected that same number.
It really depends. I remember taking my wife's car to a "tune up shop" to get the oil/filter changed on her 2002 Civic. Even the severe-duty recommendation is 5000 miles and the normal 10,000 miles. Of course every place I've taken it to slaps on a reminder to come in after 3000 miles. The last one is still on her car, kind of as a reminder that it's never going back to one of those places for an oil change.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/your-money/11shortcuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The linked page had another link to a website that will allow you to check what OCI you can use for your respective vehicle. It seems to be "set" to the normal use interval recommended by the OEM. i.e. my FX4 can go up to 7,500 miles on a normal duty schedule and the website also reflected that same number.
It really depends. I remember taking my wife's car to a "tune up shop" to get the oil/filter changed on her 2002 Civic. Even the severe-duty recommendation is 5000 miles and the normal 10,000 miles. Of course every place I've taken it to slaps on a reminder to come in after 3000 miles. The last one is still on her car, kind of as a reminder that it's never going back to one of those places for an oil change.
Most of us here are familiar with the technical advantages of synthetic compared to conventional. Is synthetic better? Yes. Will you reap the benefits of synthetic oil over the life of the vehicle; meaning, will the body of the vehicle rust out, will the electrical systems fail, will the vehicle get into a collision, will the interior completely fall apart -- all before the engine fails (considering a properly maintained engine)? Most likely, the answer is yes. A small percentage of people may reap the benefits of synthetic oil; those that have the desire to keep their engine running practically forever. For those individuals, synthetic oil has a place. For others, synthetics just give them peace of mind.
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y_p_w, those OTR trucks also have massive sumps, measured in gallons not quarts IIRC.
I use synthetic entirely because I'm cheap and lazy. Here's my math:
4/5 of a jug of M1EP + genuine Toyota Filter: $26.50 every 10k
4/5 of a jug of dino + genuine Toyota filter: $14.50 every 5k
Over a 100,000 mile period, the M1EP saves only about $30 -
BUT it also saves a whole lot of time and energy doing the "extra" 10 oil changes.
M1EP suits my "cheap and lazy" gene.
4/5 of a jug of M1EP + genuine Toyota Filter: $26.50 every 10k
4/5 of a jug of dino + genuine Toyota filter: $14.50 every 5k
Over a 100,000 mile period, the M1EP saves only about $30 -
BUT it also saves a whole lot of time and energy doing the "extra" 10 oil changes.
M1EP suits my "cheap and lazy" gene.
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