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Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? #3158796
10/17/13 11:38 AM
10/17/13 11:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
What would be the best choice for lowest wear on engine timing chains?

The GM High Feature V6 (LLT 3.6L) made for the past 10 years has had some failures (stretching, elongation) and GM says its some combination of poor oil lubrication and materials needing hardening (carbonitriding was introduced after July 2010). Affected vehicles have been the Lambda chassis Acadia/Enclave/Traverse/Outlook, Cadillac CTS and ATS, 5th Generation V6 Camaros, Opels, Saabs, etc. Of course other engines suffer from this as well, some more than others.

What can be done to lube those chains better? GM issued recalls on past Traverse/Acadia/Enclave/Outlook/Cadillac LLT v6's to cause the OLM to call for more frequent oil changes. I know my 2011 Camaro v6 already came from the factory with the more-frequent oil change OLM settings, as this car drives me crazy with how much it wants OLM oil changes.

Are more frequent oil changes really the answer? GM says it is. However, maybe the managers at GM are ignoring findings that say wear rates are actually worse with fresh oil. Reference: http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-3119/
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
"In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils." ... "As in the previous study, the results showed [in this new field study with taxi fleets] that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."

So whats the best strategy?

Is the high-moly Mazda 0w-20 (600 ppm moly) or Scheaffer 5w-30 synthetic (300 ppm moly) the answer? There are high-zinc ZDDP (with catalytic convertor destroying phosphorous) oils out there like Quaker State Defy 5w-30 synthetic blend and Royal Purple HPS 5w-30, along with Euro spec oils with high ZDDP. Are they the answer here?

Does the 4-ball wear test cited by Amsoil in their recent 5w-30 http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf comparison measure wear performance close enough for the kind of mixed-boundary-layer slapping, sliding, metal-to-metal interface between sprocket teeth and chain pins?


'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158799
10/17/13 11:40 AM
10/17/13 11:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,193
Sunny Florida
SteveSRT8 Offline
SteveSRT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,193
Sunny Florida
All data we have indicates the OLM once recalibrated is fine now.

Using a high end synthetic is more than enough 'insurance' for you.


"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158800
10/17/13 11:41 AM
10/17/13 11:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,084
Ontario , Canada
nitehawk55 Offline
nitehawk55  Offline
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Posts: 1,084
Ontario , Canada
Easy for GM to blame it on the lube , I'd be more inclined to say poor design/materials .

Honestly don't know what oil might help if any .


05 Ford Five Hundred AWD 3.0 DOHC V6 CVT tranny
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158805
10/17/13 11:45 AM
10/17/13 11:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,293
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,293
New Jersey
Id imagine that given the constant contacting of the chain on its sprockets, that this might be a good application to use MoS2 solids, like LM.

Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158814
10/17/13 11:54 AM
10/17/13 11:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
IndyIan Offline
IndyIan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,235
Ontario, Canada
What's the cause of the timing chain wear? The 2.0L on my Tracker has been known to have the hydraulic tensioner gum up and sieze, and then the chain gradually loosens and stuff breaks/wears quickly.
My strategy has been to run synthetic in it to prevent the tensioner for getting stuck and maybe clean up any varnish/sludge from when I ran conventional oil in the first 5 years. I also have run some PYB as well as its supposed to be a decent oil to reduce buildup.


07 Focus ZXW, 5spd manual, 218km M1 5W30
18 Outback 2.5 CVT 15km 0W20
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: JHZR2] #3158818
10/17/13 11:57 AM
10/17/13 11:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
Does adding MoS2 to engine oil ruin other properties in a high-end synthetic oil? In other words, can I really just mix that in and not expect other properties of the synthetic oil to be messed up (like anti-foam, VI, etc.)?

I see the Mos2 Lubricant (Anti-Friction) - Lubro Moly LM2009 by Liqui Moly additive.

Thats why in my original post I noted that Mazda 0w-20 (dealerships) has a ton of moly already smartly blended in, yet I don't know if they really have been able to achieve high levels of anti-wear performance over say German Castrol, Amsoil, Pennzoil Ultra, etc.

Last edited by FetchFar; 10/17/13 12:04 PM.

'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: IndyIan] #3158825
10/17/13 12:02 PM
10/17/13 12:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
Indylan, you raise another good point, which causes me to wonder if engine flushes (5 minutes idling before oil change) would help clean out sludge.

From what clues GM and the victims of timing chain stretching have been able to provide, it appears that the chain surface needed better hardening, as they did add carbonitriding to the newer chains as of July 2010. However, some people still claim there is a role lubrication plays in this. GM has blamed sludge or dirt, yet there are accounts of people with very clean engines who changed oil frequently still getting the excessive chain wear.

Last edited by FetchFar; 10/17/13 12:07 PM.

'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158863
10/17/13 12:35 PM
10/17/13 12:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,806
Texas
440Magnum Offline
440Magnum  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,806
Texas
If I owned one of those vehicles, I'd just budget to replace the timing chain and guides early, using the updated parts. No particular oil is assured to save a too-soft metal in the chain components from early wear. You could try loading up with ZDDP (eg., one of the Rotellas or some high-mileage oils), but I really don't think that's going to help when the metal itself is soft. ZDDP works for contact between two HARDENED metal surfaces, such as a cam lobe and lifter face. It requires the high contact pressure to work.



'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: 440Magnum] #3158872
10/17/13 12:40 PM
10/17/13 12:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
MoS2 additives then instead of ZDDP ? The physics might be complicated, but I'm hoping the metal surfaces are at least hard enough, and having a sticky mass of MoS2 would save the wear. Anybody ever have the side effect of sticking rings mucked up with MoS2 additives? Kind of like drug companies offer you a drug, and you hope the side effects aren't worse.

Last edited by FetchFar; 10/17/13 12:41 PM.

'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3158889
10/17/13 12:50 PM
10/17/13 12:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,803
.
Michael_P Offline
Michael_P  Offline
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,803
.
Quote:
Easy for GM to blame it on the lube , I'd be more inclined to say poor design/materials .


I totally agree. I have seen Ford Modulars and other engines with long timing chains go 300,000 miles on pee pee oil on extended OCI's with no issues.

On a side note, I have seen VW timing chains and sprockets head south fast with the wrong oil and OCI more than once.

Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: nitehawk55] #3159067
10/17/13 03:46 PM
10/17/13 03:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Easy for GM to blame it on the lube , I'd be more inclined to say poor design/materials .


Some have speculated that the GM HFV6 engine design doesn't flow enough oil on to the chain, and thats really at least part of the problem. Another person I know is trying to get inside GM via an engineer there to find out what the V6 lacks, if anything, although the inside engineer said in the past that there was a "larger design issue" yet to be resolved in that engine, not clear what that means. ... As I said, as of July 2010 GM did improve the surface hardening (carbonitriding), and it makes you wonder if all or just some engine makers already surface-harden their chains.


'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: 440Magnum] #3159077
10/17/13 03:54 PM
10/17/13 03:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
440Magnum, Lets say I decided to use the mopar-approved SRT-speced oil Pennzoil 0w-40. I'd like to, since its speced high and Penske Indycars use it, kind of like an extra torture test. Does anybody know if a using a 40 oil like that in an engine that normally sees a 30 oil will run into a problem with the oil jets which squirt the underside of the pistons and cylinder walls, as in will the thicker oil not get eough mass up there?


'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: JHZR2] #3159091
10/17/13 04:17 PM
10/17/13 04:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
I put in half a bottle (half the recommended amount on the instructions) of the German company's Lubro Moly MoS2 from NAPA autoparts. I made sure nobody saw me dump it in there. I wore a fake moustache and big sunglasses to make sure I was not recognized.


'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: FetchFar] #3159102
10/17/13 04:31 PM
10/17/13 04:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
I don't think that any oil or additive will help in resolving a basic design problem.
Used oil may offer lower friction and lower wear rates but it isn't clean nor is it at original viscosity.
Some engines may tolerate this well.
You don't have one of them, so more frequent changes might be your best bet.
Good luck with this one.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain? [Re: fdcg27] #3159143
10/17/13 05:23 PM
10/17/13 05:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
FetchFar Offline OP
FetchFar  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 831
Colorado
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Used oil may offer lower friction and lower wear rates but it isn't clean nor is it at original viscosity.
.


I only care about wear rates, (the rate of losing engine metals per revolution). Clean oil is academic or a religious matter to some. A good synthetic maintains viscosity well, so not a problem there either. Limits of course, yet those limits are way out. One could make the case for use of engine flush 5-minute pre-oil-change to make sure sludge is cleared out. There are just no good reasons to change the oil often in a modern car with a decent oil filter and air filter. Like real estate is "location, location, location", engines are about "wear, wear, wear".

Last edited by FetchFar; 10/17/13 05:28 PM.

'07 BMW 530xi N52 engine, E60 chassis, 255 hp
'11 Chevy Camaro LS, 3.6L V6, Zeta chassis, 312 hp
'40 Chevrolet Special Deluxe 2-Door Town Sedan
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