Super Tech filters are nothing but crap, I have used it with my Mobile 1 10W30 on my camry not even 1800 miles and my oil was way too black, when use fram X2 catagory, It starts turning black after 2500 miles, and when i change it its drak brown and not black. I still can see through. But i don't take chance and change it on 3000 miles.
BOBISTHEOILGUY FILTER TESTS
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I've read some of this long thread but didn't have a chance to go through all 9 pages! Very interesting stuff! I had a question from page one where Bob describes the setup and theory of the test rig. As I understood it, the better filters have a significant pressure drop from inlet to outlet pressusre.
I'm not sure I follow that, and maybe I missed something that was discussed in the middle. But how does the drop in pressure measure filter efficiency? (Bear with the devil's advocate train of thought here..) How would it account for filters where (due to flawed design) oil can bypass the filtering media entirely. Depending on the location and size of the bypass path such a filter could still yield a significan pressure drop thus getting "good" marks. There are other scenarios that come to mind but I'll keep it short.
Also, given the variances in the pressure drops across the filter that Bob has shown us so far how does that effect performance? Is there a feedback loop to the oil pump? I mean if I slap on a "crappy" filter with only a 5 psi drop and the next time a "good" filter with a 20 psi drop how will my engine respond?
I'm not sure I follow that, and maybe I missed something that was discussed in the middle. But how does the drop in pressure measure filter efficiency? (Bear with the devil's advocate train of thought here..) How would it account for filters where (due to flawed design) oil can bypass the filtering media entirely. Depending on the location and size of the bypass path such a filter could still yield a significan pressure drop thus getting "good" marks. There are other scenarios that come to mind but I'll keep it short.
Also, given the variances in the pressure drops across the filter that Bob has shown us so far how does that effect performance? Is there a feedback loop to the oil pump? I mean if I slap on a "crappy" filter with only a 5 psi drop and the next time a "good" filter with a 20 psi drop how will my engine respond?
I was sort of thinking the same thing as the privious post. It appears that I have, in error, substituted a filter with an 8 psi bypass valve where the OEM was 20 psi. I noticed no difference but the question is?
It would appear that the lower the psi rating on the bypass the better the flow. Since flow appears to be more important then filtering ability a lower psi may be the way to go?
Thoughts
It would appear that the lower the psi rating on the bypass the better the flow. Since flow appears to be more important then filtering ability a lower psi may be the way to go?
Thoughts
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Generic answers.
The assumption is that the higher the pressure drop ..the more filtration is taking place. It has been pointed out however that the type and composite of media can contribute to flow resistance.
There would appear to be a trade off. High filtration ...or great flow. Some fear either or both. Too good a filtration ..they fear too restrictive a flow. If they have no pressure drop ..they're convinced that the filter isn't doing anything. No matter which way you turn ..someone is going to be ChickenLittle ..and the sky will surely be falling!
I don't know of a car that operates on 8 psi of oil pressure. That would mean that this filter would constantly be in bypass whenever the engine was in operation ... except, perhaps, at a very HOT idle.
There also seems to be a unwarranted consensus around here that oil filters routinely go into bypass. I've yet to see any evidence to indicate this as true. The opinion seems as adictive as German Castrol
Bob's manifold should be able to verify many of these things if he gets enough time to do the multitude of tests that we will, no doubt, plague him with.
Hmmm ..time for some "site support", I guess.
[ October 05, 2003, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
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However (open mouth - insert foot
I find this rather disturbing
Gosh ...ain't brain storming great? You've gotta love the information age
On the other hand ...I believe that there must be a substantial differential for the bypass valve to actually engage ...so ...
[ October 05, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
I would like to have more info on the bypass opening question. The stock pump in my truck, produces 60psi at anything over idle, and the pump in my camaro goes about 80-85.
A "dashboard" oil pressure gauge simply reads the (absolute) oil pressure at the output of the oil pump. And that (absolute) pressure has no bearing on whether an oil filter is bypassing. A differential pressure gauge (across the filter) or dual (absolute) gauges (at the oil filter input and output) are needed to determine, with any degree of certainty, whether any oil is bypassing the filter.
One of Bob's recent tests shows that 70 degree F oil probably doesn't bypass a new oil filter, but might bypass a used one.
[ October 06, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Brian Barnhart ]
One of Bob's recent tests shows that 70 degree F oil probably doesn't bypass a new oil filter, but might bypass a used one.
[ October 06, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Brian Barnhart ]
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Do you know how expensive a DPG is (reading in PSID)??? It's far cheaper to have two regular gauges (as Bob has obviously figured out). I have several remote mounts that are set up for PSID ..
Still I don't know how one determines if a high pressure drop is either a GOOD filter creating a differential ..or a clogged one creating a differential. The output of the oil pump would be a BIG factor. That is ..normal oil flow (and hence, pressure) xxx differential ....high oil flow (and subsequent increase in pressure) ..higher differential. The opening of the bypass should NOT eliminate the differential ..nor I think reduce it.
Still I don't know how one determines if a high pressure drop is either a GOOD filter creating a differential ..or a clogged one creating a differential. The output of the oil pump would be a BIG factor. That is ..normal oil flow (and hence, pressure) xxx differential ....high oil flow (and subsequent increase in pressure) ..higher differential. The opening of the bypass should NOT eliminate the differential ..nor I think reduce it.
The oil filter's internal bypass valve (in the filter mount on some GMs) limits the pressure drop. Keep in mind that these are rather primitive (cheap) bypass valves, so there will be a few psi difference between the pressure when they begin to open and the pressure when they're fully open.
Filtering is done by the holes in the filter media. If top quality media has more holes of the correct size, it'll filter better with less pressure drop than lower quality media with fewer holes. Lower quality media with oversized holes will also have low pressure drop. Lower quality media with few holes will have higher pressure drop, as will a dirty filter with plugged holes.
What we really need is the money for particle testing of the filtered oil combined with flow resistance testing. What we'll have to do is rely on the filter makers' telling us what the particle trapping capability is of their filters.
Ken
[ October 07, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Filtering is done by the holes in the filter media. If top quality media has more holes of the correct size, it'll filter better with less pressure drop than lower quality media with fewer holes. Lower quality media with oversized holes will also have low pressure drop. Lower quality media with few holes will have higher pressure drop, as will a dirty filter with plugged holes.
What we really need is the money for particle testing of the filtered oil combined with flow resistance testing. What we'll have to do is rely on the filter makers' telling us what the particle trapping capability is of their filters.
Ken
[ October 07, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Any ideas as to how much longer till the experiment starts? BTW, if there is a need for all of us to chip in a few bucks on cost of the experiment, someone can put me down as one of the contributions.
I don't get a chance to come here as often. It's great to see this site getting bigger and more informative (if thats possible).
Jason
I don't get a chance to come here as often. It's great to see this site getting bigger and more informative (if thats possible).
Jason
Is there any chance you have a 13/16 - 16 remote filter mount to use for your testing also? If you do, I can possibly send out a Canton Mecca oil filter to add to the test. Model 25-432, 6 1/4" spin-on. Might need a new filter element, but the o-rings can still be reused. Won't be using it for a while.
cmfilters.com
cmfilters.com
I've got a real question a Vietnam Vet..an Army Mechanic and he says wants the Fram filter because he doesn't want the oil to filter in fact if he wants the bypass flowing that the filter is a waste of time. The quality of the oil is a lot better today and in will rinse the filter with solvent 3 oil changes before replacing it. He says you'll know it when ya got to get that vehicle out when it's needed...Maybe the solvent like the Lube Control is better off than a filter and the bypass is needed with full flow oil circulation. Calls us rookies, go to war and you'll know what he is talking about. One tough old man.....
can you do a Toyota 90915-YZZD3, 90915-YZZB5 or the 90915-20004 Lexus filter?
I saw that someone mentioned boiling water as a comparison to hot oil for danger from burns, but... What about boiling water as the medium for heating the oil and controlling the temp? I realize the stated target is 200 F., but I'd think that 212 F. would be close enough. Especially as equipment to boil water is cheap and common, and the (new) target temp of 212 is stable (so long as you don't pressurize the vessel) and easy to monitor (is it bubbling;?) Should be easy enough to come up with a (very low cost) mechanism to do this. Just an idea from a newbie...
-Scott
-Scott
Simple and effecctive. Perhaps do this only once to find the correct weight lighter vis. oil at room temp. and go on with filter test from this point with cold oil only.
I would be curious about the Canton Meca spin on or remote filter also. I use the larger one on a Volvo 2.3L turbo.
Philip Bradley
Philip Bradley
This was a great study. Were the results ever published in an excel file. If so, how can I get a copy of the results.
SAE 30 is a nominal 10.9 cSt at 100C. An ISO 10 oil is a nominal 10cSt at 40C (104F) so off the shelf oils that would do the job are avilable.
40C would be a good temperature for the working oil. The pump will warm the oil up, so it will be a lot easier to control the temp to 40C than to room temp.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2INDMOMobilVelociteOilNumberedSeries.asp
Another approach is to mix diesel and ATF to get the desired viscosity. Old desert MC racers might remember doing that for Curnutt Shock on desert sleds. People have made their own viscometers and as long as you have a known fluid that is fairly close to the viscosity of interest, calibration shouldn't be a problem.
I just scanned the pages of this thread so may have missed something, but 40 psi into the filter and an unrestricted outlet doesn't make sense. The actual pressure drop across a filter in use is much smaller because of the resistance of the oil distribution system in the engine. Measuring flow at 5 psi in, 0 restriction out would make more sense, then top it off with a 10 psi in 0 restriction out check to see if things behave as predicted.
If the outlet of the filter is just run into a bucket or other calibrated container, there is no need to measure differential pressure. And a calibrated container and stop watch is a cost effective substitute for flow meter.
If Bob already has the pump and valving to control the flow, this sounds like an inexpesive (but time consuming) test that can be done with a high degree of accuracy and repeatability.
The only instrumentation required is a pressure gauge, oil thermometer, calibrated container, stop watch and maybe a home made viscometer.
It would be nice to be able to observe bypass valve in the filter. With only 5 or 10 psi, one could cut a hole in a filter and clamp a piece of clear plastic over it to watch the valve is using clear oil. Unfortunately, that adds up to a lot more work.
i totally agree. whats up with all the output pressure? i don't feel that this is the pressure in the return line. measuring flow will be much more informative.
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