ATF Drain and Fill on 2003 Honda Accord Automatic.

[stchman]

Hello all, this is my first post.

My brother has a 2003 Honda Accord V6 with an automatic transmission.

The local dealer wanted $100 to do a drain and fill of ATF. That's a ridiculous price.

In the search for fluid the manual states to use only Honda ATF-Z1 fluid. I called the dealer and they said that DW-1 replaced Z1.

I talked to a friend of mine and even Eric the Car Guy implores people to use ONLY Honda ATF.

My question is what is so special about Honda ATF? I'm quite certain that Honda does not make ATF.

I do notice than Valvolie MaxLIfe says it meets the Honda Z1 spec.

 

[HTSS_TR]

The transmission is needed to be serviced only every 50-60k miles, even the Honda DW-1 is twice the price of Valvolie Maxlife but spread out over 4-5 years the extra cost per year is less than $10 or less than $1 per month or less than $1 per thousand miles.

There is nothing special about DW-1 but it is formulated for Honda transmission.

 

[gregk24]

I would service that transmission at least every 30K miles. The 2003 V6 are very trouble prone. And ONLY with Honda DW-1. Many fluids claim to meet or exceed DW-1 but Honda approves of NONE! Only use genuine Honda fluid.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
I would service that transmission at least every 30K miles. The 2003 V6 are very trouble prone. And ONLY with Honda DW-1. Many fluids claim to meet or exceed DW-1 but Honda approves of NONE! Only use genuine Honda fluid.


From what I have understood, the Magnuson–Moss Act stated that if a manufacturer demands you use their products, they must supply it to you for free.

 

[ram_man]

Use honda dw1 and do a drain and fill every 20,000 miles. I run dw1 in my civic. Z1 was not nearly as good as dw1 dw1is Hondas newest spec.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Honda power steering fluid is very different with any other power steering fluid, you can buy PSF from a Honda dealer or aftermarket that specifically designed for Honda power steering system, and clearly state "Honda Power Steering" on the bottle.

For power steering or transmission, usually most people don't change the fluid until 40-50k miles or later, and it is already after the warranty period of 36k/36mo.

Some used different ATF in a Honda transmission without problems, but for less than $1 extra per 1,000 miles Honda DW-1 is a safe bet.

Magnuson–Moss Act:

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.

While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.

Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.

 

[Wolf359]

I don't think $100 is too crazy from the dealer. How many quarts does it take to refill the transmission? I think you're probably just spoiled by the price of oil changes. It's usually a bit more work to change the fluid, the filter is usually more expensive and you're typically using 6-10 quarts of fluid which is probably at least $4-$6 per quart. They just don't lose money on a transmission fluid change like they would on an oil change. You could try some independent shop, they might be a little bit cheaper, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any place that would do it for less than $50.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I don't think $100 is too crazy from the dealer. How many quarts does it take to refill the transmission? I think you're probably just spoiled by the price of oil changes. It's usually a bit more work to change the fluid, the filter is usually more expensive and you're typically using 6-10 quarts of fluid which is probably at least $4-$6 per quart. They just don't lose money on a transmission fluid change like they would on an oil change. You could try some independent shop, they might be a little bit cheaper, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any place that would do it for less than $50.



I agree, however its peace of mind to do it yourself.. You never know if the tech is just going to drain 3 QTs and fill with 3 QTs....

However if they do 3x Drain n Fill 100$ isnt that bad of a deal, Honda DW1 is 7$ a Quart here so 7x9 = 63$ plus they are going to top off all your fluids... and perhaps a tire roation.... for few $ more.


I guess it just depends if you can get under your car, If you can then by all means do it.

 

[lubedude13]

I use amsoil atf in my moms 09 accord. Works fine. If Honda fluid is a good price use it. If not any fluid that specs dw1 should work.

 

[PhillyJoe]

If you can change your oil, you can change your trans fluid.
The dealer's trans service is 3 quarts out, 3 quarts in on a '03 Civic. They do not do multiple d&f's -I asked and they said that would be a waste of good fluid. It's just a 3/8" inch socket wrench and a drain pan, no filter.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: stchman
From what I have understood, the Magnuson–Moss Act stated that if a manufacturer demands you use their products, they must supply it to you for free.


This applies to warranty coverage only. Honda would have to provide the transmission fluid for free if they said that you had to use it to maintain the new car warranty. This is not the case here, both because the car is out of warranty and because Honda does not state that the warranty would be voided if you used a different fluid. They "recommend" that you use only Honda ATF. It's a very fine line they (and many other manufacturers) walk. For example, Hyundai recommends that you use only their SP line of ATF. Toyota recommends that you use only their Type IV or WS line of ATF. Ford recommends that you use only their Mercon V or whatever the current version of that fluid is. It goes on and on.

Most or all of these applications are now covered by aftermarket fluids. A number of fluids say that they are appropriate for Honda transmissions, including the aforementioned Valvoline MaxLife, and others such as Castrol Transmax Import Multi Vehicle, Pennzoil Multi Vehicle, Redline D4/D6, Amsoil ATF, etc.

I have personally used Valvoline and Castrol fluids in both of ours and I prefer the DW-1. I've gone back and forth on that over the years, but our cars really do shift differently on each of the three fluids I've used. You can get DW-1 pretty cheap on the internet. Majestic Honda sells it for $5.67/qt plus shipping...and shipping isn't too terribly high. My local dealer sells it to me for about $6.18/qt (it was a price match to somewhere, but I forget where it was). It's not quite as cheap as aftermarket fluids, but it's at least in the ballpark.

 

[eagle23]

The price could be good, but it depends if it is a single drain/fill (3 qts.) or the Honda-recommended 3 X 3 qts.If it's only a single drain/refill, then it's like $300 for the total process, which is expensive.

You are not obligated to use Honda ATF. There are lots and lots of people on this board and elsewhere who have used Valvoline MaxLife, for example, with good results. That fluid is light years better than Z-1 ever was and is spec'd by Valvoline to replace Z-1. I really like Eric the Car Guy but disagree with him re Z-1. It breaks down really fast, and obviously was in no way helpful in extending the life of some of the early V6 trannies.

BTW, the car may have been retrofitted with the recall item that reroutes ATF to the top of the trans and onto the gear/bearing that was the weak spot. Later units had that reroute internally. You can tell by looking down at the top of the tranny, toward the back. Check Youtube; I am sure there are short pieces that show it.

What Honda did was to remove the filler plug where you add ATF and run the reroute the recall's external plumbing there. To add ATF, you have to remove a small bolt (10mm?) that secures the plumbing in place. Add ATF, reinstall; repeat.

Honda is never going to "approve" another's fluid. All the others have to do is meet Honda's specs, period. There are people here who believe the myth of "Honda trans malfunction if not fed Honda fluid". They are free to do that, but many have not and do not own Hondas.

IDK if you have a place to change ATF but on Hondas it is as easy as an oil change. The drain plug uses a square drive (1/2" or 3/8"; I forget at the moment). It's on the driver's side of the trans, facing the left front wheel.

You could do the 3 qt. change then drive it a while and repeat, as part of a gradual process. Honda actually specs driving briefly when doing the 3X process. As long as all the gears are engaged (i.e., all the internal valving and fluid tracks are used), it is ready to be drained again. I just drive mine about a mile or two then do it again.

There is a filter but it's a PITA to get to, as Honda's don't have a transmission pan with the filter right there like many others do. That's a separate conversation.

BTW I have used Redline's ATF and am now using Valvoline. I recommend the Valvoline, plus a bottle of Lubegard Black (Platinum is fine, too, per LG's webpage recs) which LG recommends for Hondas. It adds to the fluid's ability to run cooler (documented).

Lubegard is recommended by a number of OEM manufacturers and rebuilders. I have in it both my '07 Accord V6 and the old '91 Ranger. In the Ranger, Lubegard Red (two bottles in this case) made the trans shift more smoothly and engage better than it ever had, even using Mobil 1 ATF, which is certainly good stuff.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sayjac]

A much discussed topic here and a google search of this site (try: ATF for Honda site:bobistheoilguy.com or something similar) will reveal the discussion. It can be seen that a good number of posters are currently successfully using MaxLife and other aftermarket ATF that are labeled recommended/suitable for Z-1 applications for which your car is spec'd.

As a personal anecdote, I'm currently running ML in two Hondas spec'd for Z-1. An 01 Civic saw Z-1 only with 25-30k single d&f's to ~165k. With Z-1 discontinued, switched and now the Civic is approaching 200k on it's second d&f. Both vehicles, other Accord, are performing as well as with Z-1. Last purchase ML gallon, ~$17 at Walmart.

As proven now, Z-1 was a fluid that sheared quickly, so the viscosity difference with the newer synthetic ATF's like ML, while starting lower than Z=1 are much more shear resistant. I will say the Z-1 was one of the most criticized ATF's here and imo nothing special.

As for your other points, if the stealer is charging $100 for a single d&f even using DW-1, I agree it is ridiculous, especially considering it's such a simple diy, simpler in some ways than an oil and filter change. Even if you decide on using DW-1, do consider diy. ~25-30k intervals have worked for me.

As for Eric's recommendation, also been discussed. Eric knows the mechanical portion, but as his recent backstroke youtube on synthetic oil shows, when it comes to fluids, not so much. But considering the poor reputation of some Honda AT's using oem while under warranty makes some sense. But out of warranty like you it should not be a concern.

Also the mentioned comparison to Honda PSF, though similar, not exactly the same. I've used both Bardahl and now Prestone specifically labeled for Honda/Acura only, with good results. I wouldn't have used anything not labeled that way, but unlike some, my experience with the two mentioned says those aftermarkets work quite nicely for less cost.

All that said, if using DW-1 at the lowest price you can find gives you peace of mind, that will work too. But do consider diy.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I would definitely change the fluid frequently on that car. Every 15K. Also change the filter. The Honda dealer will deny the existence of a filter.

 

[Roob]

Just had a drain and fill done on my accord with DW1 at the dealer, only $60. I didn't have to get dirty, I got to sit in an air conditioned room with free tv, wi if, coffee. No bad side to that...
Unfortunately the tech misread the work order and changed the engine oil. One free oil change later, plus a 50% discount for aquapel treatment, new tranny fluid and a book load of massive discounts for future stuff I was happy.

The engine oil was actually going to be changed the next week so it worked out quite well!!!
You can use OEM fluid with confidence, DW1 is a very different animal than Z1 and you will notice a difference. If cost is an issue then any of the other fluids mentioned would be adequate.
Try the DW1 with a drain and fill first, if you like the results stay with it, if not then go with another fluid.

 

[SatinSilver]

If the car see's mostly city miles I'd go 15k drain/fills. 20k with a mixture of city/hwy miles. The V6 auto needs more frequent drain/fills imo. The dealer is likely doing a single drain/fill. Where approximately 3 quarts are drained out and refilled. Some indy places will do this at a fraction of the price esp if you're doing another service with them at the same time like an oil change.

 

[yesthatsteve]

With most V6 Honda products of that era (Accord, Odyssey, TL), the transmission was a real weak point. The original Honda Z-1 fluid was another. As others have indicated, it sheared quickly, especially in V6 applications. As a conventional fluid, it also did not stand up well to heat.

DW-1 is a significant improvement. Maxlife, Amsoil, and Redline D4 are significant improvements, as well.

I have nothing to lose by trying another fluid, as the trans in my Ody failed three times using Honda fluid, the first two on Z-1, and the third failure was either on old-stock Z-1 or brand new DW-1. Since the third failure was after only 39k, I suspect Z-1.

While I believe DW-1 is a better fluid, I'm done with the only-Honda-fluid" FUD, and use Maxlife with Lubegard. My response to those who say that I must use only Honda fluid is, "What will happen if I don't? My transmission will fail? Again?"

I'm at 48k on the current rebuild, and liking the Maxlife so far. Any of the fluids mentioned so far in this thread should suffice. I agree with a more frequent servicing if you do a single D & F. Cooler line exchanges in an Accord can probably go 30k or so.

 

[Artem]

X... (i lost count) on Valvoline Maxlife. I've used it on many Honda auto transmissions over the years with great success and smoother shifts afterward.

The most recent was a 2003 Odyssey. I used VML + half bottle of Lucas Tranny Fix to help with the rough shifting that the car was suffering from. 20 miles and a dozen trips to redline in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear (getting on and off the highway) the transmission was shifting MUCH smoother and that was only a simple drain n fill. The owner didn't want to do a cooler line flush or multiple drain n fills before adding Lucas. He wanted a simple and quick oil change.

^ Another success story with VML. @ Only $17 a gallon at Walmart, it's a bargain and is very cheap to change every 30k miles or so.

 

[stchman]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I don't think $100 is too crazy from the dealer. How many quarts does it take to refill the transmission? I think you're probably just spoiled by the price of oil changes. It's usually a bit more work to change the fluid, the filter is usually more expensive and you're typically using 6-10 quarts of fluid which is probably at least $4-$6 per quart. They just don't lose money on a transmission fluid change like they would on an oil change. You could try some independent shop, they might be a little bit cheaper, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any place that would do it for less than $50.


The dealer is simply going to do a drain and refill. To change the filter out on a Honda AT requires you to dis-assemble the transmission.

The dealer charges $8 a quart for me to buy DW-1 from their parts department. I know that they get it a LOT cheaper than $8 a quart.

I would agree that $100 for a pan drop, filter and gasket change, and fluid refill is a good price in today's economy.

 

[Quakish]

for $100 they are doing a drain and fill with 3 or 3.5 quarts only. no way they are doing 3 x drain and fill.

biggest issue with those trans is heat. i put a cooler on my 03 odyssey and keeps the z-1 nice and red. shifts fine. that said my next fluid change is with maxlife. have 3 jugs waiting.