Recent Topics
Traveller 5w30 SYNTHETIC
by Vlad_the_Russian
05/26/17 11:47 AM
Basic Description of Lubricant Films
by MotoTribologist
05/26/17 10:29 AM
Harvest King All-Fleet 15W-40 VOA
by SmrtJustin
05/26/17 10:18 AM
Ecopia with a front bulge
by nicholas
05/26/17 09:22 AM
How Do Univ. ATF's Meet Many Specs.?
by doitmyself
05/26/17 08:30 AM
Berkeley Professor arrested for Assault.
by pbm
05/26/17 07:28 AM
Oroville Dam Spillway Webcam
by Danno
05/26/17 06:28 AM
RA Clearance Oil Filters.
by dlundblad
05/26/17 06:22 AM
Where part store parts are made and by who
by ram_man
05/25/17 11:36 PM
Isn't it sad they can't predict the weather?
by motor_oil_madman
05/25/17 11:04 PM
recirculation mode makes ac last longer?
by motor_oil_madman
05/25/17 10:17 PM
Supertech ELC & NAPA Cool for 7.3 powerstroke
by T-Stick
05/25/17 10:16 PM
Toyota TGMO 0W20 - VOA
by VolkswagenFox21
05/25/17 09:38 PM
POTUS scolds "Bad Germans" ref auto sales in US
by wemay
05/25/17 08:35 PM
Do thermostats get 'lazy' over time?
by Klutch9
05/25/17 07:38 PM
Goodyear Endurance trailer tires
by another Todd
05/25/17 06:58 PM
What visits your yard?
by funflyer
05/25/17 06:47 PM
LR3 Brake pads
by HoosierJeeper
05/25/17 06:44 PM
Delco synchromesh friction modified MT fluid
by deoxy4
05/25/17 06:41 PM
Out of State Car Purchase Questions
by FirstNissan
05/25/17 06:14 PM
Newest Members
Jes, hamm, Curlscurls, stuka, rodekyll
61656 Registered Users
Who's Online
89 registered (andrewlg, 2015_PSD, 901Memphis, Alex_V, 455RACE, 09_GXP, 11 invisible), 2469 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
61656 Members
66 Forums
265630 Topics
4389864 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#3133911 - 09/23/13 09:17 PM Iron levels on UOA's
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 5167
Loc: FL, USA
This just popped into my mind and I got curious so here it goes...why is it that on many a Honda/Toyota UOA the iron levels are so low compared to other makes of cars? Do they use less iron when building the engines, or do they just wear better? Im not trying to knock on other brands, this is a serious question. Just curious thats all.
_________________________
2012 Honda Accord EX-L K24z3
46,xxx miles
PPPP 0w20 / Fram Ultra

2014 VW Jetta SE 1.8T ea888
26,xxx miles
Castrol Edge 0w40 / OEM filter

Top
#3133927 - 09/23/13 09:41 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Quest Offline


Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 7358
Loc: beaver land EH?
iron in UOA typically comes from sources such as cylinder wall liners, ring and/or cylinder bore wear, etc.

This is not applicable if the bore is done with NIKASIL, which is gaining popularity in certain automotive engine designs.

Q.
_________________________
"Internet discussion boards act as echo chambers for conspiracy dittoheads" A.Allen

Top
#3133946 - 09/23/13 10:00 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 15594
Loc: Clovis, CA
I see the highest Iron numbers on Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30. Those two grades in that brand.

And incidentally, those two oils also log in the most noise complaints on this board too.

Top
#3133950 - 09/23/13 10:03 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6538
Loc: southeast US
Keep in mind that UOA ppm detects only normal wear and less so abnormal wear. Most toyota/honda engines still use steel liners. Not sure why the numbers would be lower though.
Good question.

Top
#3134005 - 09/23/13 11:54 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: Merkava_4]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 6392
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I see the highest Iron numbers on Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30. Those two grades in that brand.

And incidentally, those two oils also log in the most noise complaints on this board too.


Interesting correlation.
_________________________
Oil condition is speculation until a UOA is performed.

2013 F150 5.0 4x4 SuperCab 63k on Amsoil

Thick vs Thin test: 6k / 43k miles complete


Top
#3134019 - 09/24/13 01:15 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 626
Loc: WV
It's scary the wealth of factual information one can find on the internet. Here's all you ever probably wanted to know on the topic: LINK. (Just tell them you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express haha) Honda/Toyota use a fiber or particle reinforced aluminum type alloy aka metal matrix composite(MMC)for their cylinder blocks and liners.

Top
#3134047 - 09/24/13 04:57 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
Falken Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 2630
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
I am a newbie on this site, so before looking at other metals, I started learning how to read a UOA by looking at FE wear first.

I learned the "whys" of FE wear, then I moved on to Copper and learned the "whys" of Cu wear next and so on.

Now I can read a UOA ok I guess, and know most of the contaminants but not all the "whys" yet.

The final step is all your combined wear against the averages for that vehicle, to see exactly how well the chosen engine oil is working in your vehicle.
_________________________
Falken - Draftsperson
2010 Honda Fit DX-A in Black
Current Fill: Formula 1 Synthetic 5W20 SN, Wix 57356 Oil Filter, ATF DW-1

Top
#3134244 - 09/24/13 09:55 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6538
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan
Honda/Toyota use a fiber or particle reinforced aluminum type alloy aka metal matrix composite(MMC)for their cylinder blocks and liners.


Do you actually own Honda/Toyota cars? Most of them DON'T have composite liners.
And certainly no one makes blocks from MMC.

Top
#3134355 - 09/24/13 11:22 AM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: gregk24]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2338
Loc: Magnolia, TX
My Honda has FRM liners with low Fe wear. Not sure about the Toyota's.
I think if you look at fuel dilution %, you might see a corresponding increase in Fe wear. The ME paper indirectly mentions that.
_________________________
2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4X4 5.7L FFV
2012 Toyota 4Runner 2WD SR5
2004 Honda S2000

Top
#3134594 - 09/24/13 01:49 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 626
Loc: WV
Freindly_Jacek did you even bother reading the link I provided? You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, I see.

If not I'll quote this from John Lenny Jr's article for you, "Several automobile manufacturers have been successful in creating metal matrix
composites for production level engine cylinder blocks. Toyota Motor Company was
successful in producing an all-aluminum cylinder block with a MMC liner local to the
cylinder bores. The MMC liner preform consisted of alumina-silica fibers and mullite
particles [28]. Mullite is a refractory that increases the mechanical strength and thermal
shock resistance of the composite. Toyota produced inline four cylinder engine blocks
using this material combination.
Honda motor company was another automobile manufacturer to have success in
producing an all-aluminum engine block with a MMC lined cylinder bore. Honda
manufactured the cylinder blocks by placing cores of carbon fiber in an alumina (Al2O3)
matrix in the casting mold and then poured the molten aluminum around the cores [27].
The MMC cores absorbed the molten aluminum forming the reinforced cylinder bore
surface. After the casting was formed, the inner diameter of the MMC liner is bored out,
so that there is a 0.5-mm thick layer of material remaining. This small thickness of the
reinforced material provides the required wear resistance for the cylinder block
application. Honda used this material in both an inline four cylinder block and a vbanked six cylinder block".

Yes among my family we currently own 7 Toyotas/Lexus' and 2 Hondas(mowers).

Top
#3134609 - 09/24/13 02:04 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6538
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan


Yes among my family we currently own 7 Toyotas/Lexus' and 2 Hondas(mowers).


OK,
I'll bite. Which of the 7 cars and 2 mowers you own contain MMC liners/"blocks"?

Top
#3134630 - 09/24/13 02:18 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 626
Loc: WV
Sorry I don't know since I'm not a Toyota/Honda engine block designer just an anesthesiologist with a PhD in biochem in my spare time and a farmer most of the time. Why do you ask and do you know the answer yourself?

The article clearly stated that both Toyota/Honda have used fiber lined cylinder bores and you stated they use steel.

Top
#3134637 - 09/24/13 02:22 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6538
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan
Sorry I don't know since I'm not a Toyota/Honda engine block designer just an anesthesiologist with a PhD in biochem in my spare time and a farmer most of the time.


Please don't post about things you are clueless about.

Top
#3134725 - 09/24/13 03:30 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: friendly_jacek]
GenSan Offline


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 626
Loc: WV
You wanted some definitive answers so I'll give them to you.

Toyota's 2ZZ-GE use a MMC lined cylinder bore as this SAE technical paper describes: LINK.

Here's an SAE tech paper on Japanese engineers' use of NCC(nickel ceramic composite) coatings in their motorcycles and diesel engines LINK. Which leads my non-expert eyes to believe that Japanese engineers have done their homework in regards to what cylinder bore linings would ensure longevity and provide the least amount of Fe wear in their blocks that oil analyses would verify.

Top
#3134771 - 09/24/13 04:08 PM Re: Iron levels on UOA's [Re: GenSan]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6538
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: GenSan

Toyota's 2ZZ-GE use a MMC lined cylinder bore as this SAE technical paper describes: LINK.


Bingo, 2ZZ-GE is the only Toyota engine I'm aware of with MMC liner. Not made anymore.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >