Mobil 1 and K&N Flow Rate ?

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I just got off the phone with Champion Labs. They make both of these brands of filters and stated that the Mobil 1's filter down to 10 microns whereas the K&N's filter to 20 microns. Either one of these would be used in a high reving (8,500 rpm) Honda Vtec motor as a daily driver but also during some weekend auto-x events, etc. Is it safe to assume that the flow rate would be better (higher) with the K&N vs. the Mobil 1, and would it really make a difference? I would prefer to have the better filtering ability of the Mobil 1's if the reduced flow wouldn't be harmful. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.
 
I'm a bit confused by their filtration efficiency claims on the K&N oil filter. Terry tells us that this filter really only filters out about 50% of the particles 35 microns and larger. But K&N claims 20 microns here. But at what efficiency? All filters can take out 20 or even 10 micron particles, but what percentage of them is a mystery in a lot of cases. Any oil filter maker can say their filters stop particles as small as 10 microns, but it could be only 5% of 10 micron particles. I really wish that all oil filter makers had to report the efficiency of their filters with the same type of test. For instance, I'd like to know at a 99% efficiency level, what is the micron rating? There is just too much confusion in this area.
 
Unless I'm missing something the Walmart Supertech Filter has a 20 micron nomial rating with 98% single pass efficiency and 99% mult-pass.

K&N doesn't sound any better. For an extra $6 or $8 bucks you get a sheet metal nut welded on the filter case and maybe a thicker shell. Sounds like no bargain to me.
 
That's just it, the K&N's numbers appear not much different than some lower cost filters, so I wonder if I should go with them or not. The Premium Plus filters I use now appear about the same filtration wise, but for less money. But the K&N is definitely a better built filter, and you know it's not going to burst, and the bypass valve and antidrainback valve are probably better on the K&N for longer intervals, as I bet they'll last longer.
 
The next time someone's on the phone with Champion Labs (I'd do it but most 1-800 numbers based in the US are inaccessible for us Canadians for some reason) ask them what the flow rating on the Mobil 1 filter is. K&N claims a 12-16gpm flow rating on it's filters! That is incredible, as the Purolator filters I am using now show a 3-5gpm flow rating. (the smaller ones are 3, the larger filters are 4 and 5)

I emailed K&N to see if they can clear up the filtration efficiency numbers a little more clearly. Hopefully they will be able to say exactly what percentage of 20 micron particles they stop.

I'm slowly talking myself into running a K&N oil filter on my Firebird (I already have one on my wife's car)
 
Twice I've called Champion Labs and asked about the flow rate of the Mobil 1 filters. The guy on the help line either doesn't know or won't say. He agreed with me that you would assume that the flow would be better on a filter with 30% media (oversized). I'm not even convinced of that though, since holes in and out are the same size and that may be the limiting factor. I saw the PureONE's flow listed as 3gpm, and read of others who have cut open this filter and stated that the media seems to be packed extremely tight. For these reasons I decided to pass on the PureONE. The 3gpm seems to be quite low to me. My original question in this post is really refering to my son's Integra Type-R. I've actually switched to an oversized Mobil 1 (M1-105) on my Vtec motored Integra. I stumbled on 14 of these filters a few weeks ago for $3.80 each shipped! Both of us have switched to Schaeffer's 10w-30 and want to use the best filter we can. Anybody got any more thoughts on filter flow rates? I'd love to hear 'em.
 
Ok, I just got off the phone with Champion Labs (again
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), and I think I finally got some good info from a real car guy. He described the K&N's as "speciality racing" filters, and stated that all their OEM filters are flow bench tested at 3gpm but all will flow "quite a bit" more than that without going into bypass. He said that he had no specific numbers for the Mobil 1's or the K&N's but that the K&N claim of 12-16gpm is their own and not that of Champion Labs. He also said that the K&N filters down to 18 microns and the Mobil 1 to 10 microns, and that any of these filters should only go into bypass when used for long drain intervals "over 5000 miles" as the media becomes more restricted, even in high reving motors. His personal car is a turbocharged Firebird and he runs the Mobil 1 filter. His brother runs a drag strip only car and has run both of these filters with no problem. So, bottom line for me is: I'll be using the Mobil 1's.
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Patman & BrewCityR, My e-mail question to K&N:
"Can you give me any info about your HP-1004 and HP-1005 oil filters bypass valve design and psi settings, as well as flow rate of each filter?"

And the response:

HP-1004:
M20 x 1.5-6H thread
3.12" OD
3.48" length
11-14 PSI
Has an anti-drain back valve

HP-1005
M20 x 1.5 thread
3.81" OD
3.49" length
11-17 PSI
Has an anti-drain back valve

So... Nothing on flow rate, which suprised me since their claim to fame is that they are higher flow filters than the rest of the world. The slight difference in bypass setting I don't think makes a difference though. Took about a week to get a reply. Anybody know what the "6H" means with regard to the thread? I think the bypass valve design is the same as the Mobil 1 M1-104 compared to the M1-105 in that the the M1-104/HP-1004 has the bypass in the can or top end, the M1-105/HP-1005 has it in the threaded base plate end. My understanding is that the latter may be a more desirable design since when in bypass, the oil makes a shorter loop and the unfiltered oil doesn't flush across the media on it's way to the bypass valve, possibly dragging some caputured junk with it in the process.
 
Wish K&N had more info. Wonder if they have knowledgable leads?

The "6H" is just ISO thread tolerance class designation. Precision of the threads. 6H/6g happens to be the default for metric internal/external fasteners - general purpose. If not written you can assume. Same for the pitch (1.5) for that matter.

David
 
K&N isn't very good at sending out proper tech info. I emailed them last week asking them specifically what the nominal and absolute micron ratings were for their filters, along with single pass efficiency and multipass efficiency numbers and flow ratings.

I got an email back and all it said was

"our filters will trap 10-20 micron particles"

Well duh! ANY oil filter will do that. Even a filter with a 50 micron nominal rating will still filter out 10-20 micron particles. Maybe only 2% of them though.

I'm so sick of these useless tech answers! If any tech reps are reading this, SHAPE UP! If we ask specific questions, take the time to find the info for us! Someone at the company has to know the answers we ask.
 
quote:

Originally posted by ShootingStar:
Patman & BrewCityR, My e-mail question to K&N:
"Can you give me any info about your HP-1004 and HP-1005 oil filters bypass valve design and psi settings, as well as flow rate of each filter?"

And the response:

HP-1004:
M20 x 1.5-6H thread
3.12" OD
3.48" length
11-14 PSI
Has an anti-drain back valve

HP-1005
M20 x 1.5 thread
3.81" OD
3.49" length
11-17 PSI
Has an anti-drain back valve



A bit surprising that the 1004 is spec'd for Hondas, yet the pressure is 11 to 14psi instead of around 20psi.....

quote:

I think the bypass valve design is the same as the Mobil 1 M1-104 compared to the M1-105 in that the the M1-104/HP-1004 has the bypass in the can or top end, the M1-105/HP-1005 has it in the threaded base plate end. My understanding is that the latter may be a more desirable design since when in bypass, the oil makes a shorter loop and the unfiltered oil doesn't flush across the media on it's way to the bypass valve, possibly dragging some caputured junk with it in the process.

That is absolutely correct. Honda people using the HP-1004 or M1-104 would be better served using the HP-1005 or M1-105.
 
quote:

Originally posted by bill99gxe:

A bit surprising that the 1004 is spec'd for Hondas, yet the pressure is 11 to 14psi instead of around 20psi.....


Is 20psi number the accepted, gospel truth, bypass valve setting of a Honda OEM filter? I've wondered for a long time what it REALLY is since all these filter makers use a single number and apply it to many brands cars. In other words, they're all more or less universal within the given paramaters of thread size, gasket size, etc.
 
The Amsoil, SDF-20 filter for this application has a by-pass valve opening pressure of 18-20 psid, if that helps ....
 
Hello ssmokn,

For your information, nominal ratings in filtration means 50% efficiency and to be stated as absolute rating it needs to have a minimum efficiency of 98.7% at the micron size specified.

So there is no way that the Walmart Supertech filter have the efficiency you state at 20 microns.

Best regards

Rob

quote:

Originally posted by ssmokn:
Unless I'm missing something the Walmart Supertech Filter has a 20 micron nomial rating with 98% single pass efficiency and 99% mult-pass.

K&N doesn't sound any better. For an extra $6 or $8 bucks you get a sheet metal nut welded on the filter case and maybe a thicker shell. Sounds like no bargain to me.


 
Hello ShootingStar,

You are just bringing up a good point about the filter manufacturers different point of views.

Some of the manufacturers are aiming to have what we would call "Will Fit" filters while others are more into the "Exact Specs".

The "Will-Fit" filter is a compromise in specifications where the manufacturers can decided to have one filter fitting 3 to 4 different applications. It's only requirements is that it will fit the application, the by-pass valve setting would ideally be set for the lowest pressure required by the different applications. There are also some manufacturers that are using the same filtration media across their automotive filters.

Then there are the "Exact Specs" manufacturers which will base their design on what is required by the Original Equipment Manufacturer. They will start their research buy buying 48 to 72 filters of the same part numbers from a local OE Dealer for the application their are looking to make filters for.

Their will get those filters in their laboratory and extract the performance of that filter. They will usually repeat the tests a minimum of at least 3 times for all the test and they will average the results obtained. Some of the test conducted will be to find out the efficiency, capacity, burst pressure, pulsation testing.

They will also tear appart some new filter to get samples of the filtration media used so they can determine it's property. Flow testing, tear resistance, Bubble Test are only a few of the test they will run on the filtration media to find out what type of media they will need minimally to meet the OE.

They also will measure all the parts of that filter (metal can, base plate, centre tube, gasket & end caps).

All those testing results will dictate what they will have to do to meet the OE specifications.

Then it is their choices to meet or exceed OE specifications.

Sometimes, the market will dictate to the manufacturer the road to take.

Example, some large surface retailer (K-Mart, Wallmart, Canadian Tire, etc) wants to offer filters for cars for wants the offering to be the least numbers required to cover the most cars (or have the least part numbers covering the most applications).

This is not going to point to any specific brand but some manufacturer are really bad for it.

Another thing to prevent miss-applications of filters be sure to lookup the application in the filter's manufacturer application guide. If you want to know why?, read the warranty statement in the back of that guide! here is an small part of it:

So&So Filter Manufacturer warranty their filters to be free of defects in material and workmanship and will cover the cost of damages to an engine if the filter should be defective as long as the filter as been used for the application it was designed for.

The reason their all use a very similar statement is very simple. There are alot of filters today that have the same physical dimensions & thread but are totally different on the inside and the only way to make sure you are using the correct filter for your application is to look it up in the application guide provided by the filter manufacturer.

Best regards from Montreal, Canada

Rob.

quote:

Originally posted by ShootingStar:

quote:

Originally posted by bill99gxe:

A bit surprising that the 1004 is spec'd for Hondas, yet the pressure is 11 to 14psi instead of around 20psi.....


Is 20psi number the accepted, gospel truth, bypass valve setting of a Honda OEM filter? I've wondered for a long time what it REALLY is since all these filter makers use a single number and apply it to many brands cars. In other words, they're all more or less universal within the given paramaters of thread size, gasket size, etc.


 
OK Shooting Star (might be of interest to Patman, too), I know it's already been mentioned that K&N's info is lacking, so I don't know if this will help or hinder your decision:

I sent a request for some SPECIFIC flow info to K&N, along with some "curiosity"-type questions. Here's what I asked:
"Your website says your oil filters flow as much as 12-16 gpm. Can you give me an actual gpm number for your HP-1002 at 10 psi? Also, your cut-away view labels the filter media as resin-impregnated. Can you tell me what the media is made of, what the resin is, what the resin's temperature/solubility is in hot, pressurized engine oil, & what it does for the filtering process?"

And the K&N tech's reponse:
"Our filters are made at the same laboratory that makes Mobil-1 filters.
R&D was unable to give me this information because it is considered "proprietary information".
Our filters flow and filter correctly for the application that the filter is intended for."

What?!
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Isn't flow rate one of their main selling points? I can appreciate that the specific material & chemical makeup of their product may be "trade secrets," but I wasn't even provided with basics like a gpm range, "cellulose" vs "synthetic," or "non-soluble," etc.

I'm going to rephrase my questions to them in more of a non-threatening manner, & I'll let you know what I get back. But, FWIW, I'd rather buy ANY product that will back up their benefits (& admit shortcomings), rather than a competitor who's so protective that everything's a secret.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Time for beer...
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Yes Greg its more of the SOS and as you indicated that is a selling point of theirs. I doubt you will get any further information. I do use K&N mainly because they are more available than Mobil 1 and they are a very heavy metal shell.
 
Greg Netzner, Thanks for the info and lack thereof.
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I'm actually now going with the 14 oversized Mobil 1's that I found at a great price, but my son (also driving a Honda) is still debating M1 vs. K&N. Since they are both physically almost identical, and both are made by Champion Labs, I was hoping to gleen any useful info from one that might be applied to the other. If only the CIA and the FBI could keep secrets like these guys do! All we want is to know what we're buying, and anybody who wants to steal their corporate secrets can buy a couple of dozen of these filters, cut em up and figger it all out for themselves. Calling Mobil just gets you the phone number of Champion Labs, and they won't or can't give any REAL specifics either.
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If you can get any more info about any of the filters I've mentioned or ANYTHING about any filters from these guys, I'd love to see it all.
 
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