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Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3093761 08/12/13 04:40 PM
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AlaskaMike Offline
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Originally Posted By: LITOA

From what you are saying, it sounds like you are using paper towels straight from Cosco, into the housing. No fabric sock, no plastic ends, no removal of the center cardboard core, correct? It is my understanding that the most important thing is to get the most densely wound roll you can find with the diameter of the roll being as large as possible and still fit in the housing.


Yep, that's correct--the denser the roll the better. I do leave the roll as-is and reuse the plastic ends, but I don't use the plastic sock. I thought about ordering some of the GCF elements just to get some spare plastic ends, but I haven't bothered.

Quote:

I presume you are having no issues with the paper degrading to the point where it is flowing into the engine?

Thank you very much!


My pleasure, and no issues with paper floating around in the oil at all. If that were happening it would certainly be reflected in my analysis reports. Also, when I change out the paper towel roll, it comes out looking the same as it went in (except it's now all black and oily grin ). If it were disintegrating in the oil flow I expect it would look eroded or chunks would be missing--I definitely don't see either of that happening.

Mike

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: AlaskaMike] #3093984 08/12/13 09:01 PM
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LITOA Offline OP
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Thanks for confirming all the details, Mike. I had heard / read so many times that paper towels could be used, but I couldn't bring myself to try it without getting at least one person to tell me they were actually doing it. I have found quite a few who have friends that have friends that knows a guy who's uncle's brother was doing it, but could not find a single first hand account.

You have given me the confidence to give it a go. Thanks!

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3094194 08/13/13 06:03 AM
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Jim Allen Offline
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The only thing missing is the knowledge of what the paper towels are doing for you... i.e. a rated efficiency.

Of course, we have established in this case that you really aren't getting that either from the Gulf Coast people so I guess it's a case of cheap gray area is better than expensive gray area ( : < ).


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: Jim Allen] #3095346 08/14/13 10:34 AM
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AlaskaMike Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
The only thing missing is the knowledge of what the paper towels are doing for you... i.e. a rated efficiency.


Not at all--it's quite clear what the paper towels are doing when I get my oil analysis results.

I don't much care about rated efficiency. Half the time those numbers are skewed or manipulated. The analysis results is what tells me what effect the filter is having, and that's what I care about.

Mike

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: AlaskaMike] #3095424 08/14/13 12:19 PM
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Jim Allen Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike

Not at all--it's quite clear what the paper towels are doing when I get my oil analysis results.


Post some before and after UOAs. Let's see those dramatic differences. I'm genuinely curious and no doubt others are as well.

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike

I don't much care about rated efficiency. Half the time those numbers are skewed or manipulated. The analysis results is what tells me what effect the filter is having, and that's what I care about.

Mike


"Half the time," huh. That's a ridiculous comment you can't back up. Or maybe you can and you got the "scoop of the century" and tomorrow's headlines. Again, unless you have done before and after (more than one of each) to show what you are getting, how do you know that what you are getting isn't what you would have gotten with no bypass at all (or a different bypass)? Answer: you can't.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: Jim Allen] #3095881 08/14/13 08:52 PM
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LITOA Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Again, unless you have done before and after (more than one of each) to show what you are getting, how do you know that what you are getting isn't what you would have gotten with no bypass at all (or a different bypass)? Answer: you can't.



Really? You think someone using a bypass filter and doing regular UOAs isn't comparing one report to the next? Even I, a GCF system newbie could provide you with before and after (more than one of each). For someone that admitted they had never heard of the GCF, you seem to have the most to say, even if none of it addresses the original question for the thread.

AlaskaMike not only addressed the question posed, but gave a detailed explanation based on his personal experience with the system in question. For answering the question that was posed, AlaskaMike has my gratitude. For those that wanted to change the discussion into what filter I should go buy today, instead of the one that I put on two months ago, that's really not what I was looking for.

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3096073 08/15/13 06:23 AM
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Jim Allen Offline
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Originally Posted By: LITOA
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Again, unless you have done before and after (more than one of each) to show what you are getting, how do you know that what you are getting isn't what you would have gotten with no bypass at all (or a different bypass)? Answer: you can't.



Really? You think someone using a bypass filter and doing regular UOAs isn't comparing one report to the next? Even I, a GCF system newbie could provide you with before and after (more than one of each). For someone that admitted they had never heard of the GCF, you seem to have the most to say, even if none of it addresses the original question for the thread.

AlaskaMike not only addressed the question posed, but gave a detailed explanation based on his personal experience with the system in question. For answering the question that was posed, AlaskaMike has my gratitude. For those that wanted to change the discussion into what filter I should go buy today, instead of the one that I put on two months ago, that's really not what I was looking for.


I didn't hear many details from Mike, only how to roll the paper towels to stuff them in the canister. He has not presented any efficiency information nor any UOA information. I challenged him to do so to improve the flow of information. He takes it personally. Ok.

As to not knowing GCF, dude, a filter is a filter. It's just one brand name among many. There are only so many roads to the same destination and after seeing their website a week or so ago when this first came up, I can see that GCF is nothing real different or special versus the dozens of other available systems. They are less upfront with efficiency data than most.

If you are happy with the answer you got... great. Frankly, though, I think you are driving down the road with your headlights off but I guess you have the road to yourself so nobody else gets hurt. "Hurt" is a poor choice of words maybe. It's very unlikely the paper towel setup will hurt your engine, that's certain. May help you, but you will never know by how much unless you find some adequate test data or generate some yourself. That's the point I'm belaboring.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: Jim Allen] #3096374 08/15/13 12:29 PM
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AlaskaMike Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

I didn't hear many details from Mike, only how to roll the paper towels to stuff them in the canister. He has not presented any efficiency information nor any UOA information. I challenged him to do so to improve the flow of information. He takes it personally. Ok.


Jim, where in the world are you getting that I'm taking it personally? I think the only one who appears to be bent out of shape in this thread is you. You asked the same questions that everyone asks who is skeptical about TP/paper towel filters, and I gave you a relatively simple, quick answer.

You're absolutely right that I haven't posted my analysis results. I freely admit that I don't have any "before" results--the first time I sent in a sample from this truck was shortly after I installed the filter. I believe I have a total of three analysis reports over the roughly 20k miles I've had the filter installed. Should I have sent in a "before" sample to get a baseline? In hindsight, sure. I have no problem with posting my analysis reports--I just haven't taken the time to do so yet. You're the only one demanding that I do so, and until now they weren't particularly relevant to this thread.

I also don't know where you're getting that I'm claiming "dramatic differences" with this filter. I'm still new to bypass filters and I'm trying to figure things out. Your personal attacks aren't appreciated. From what I've seen so far, there aren't any "dramatic differences" and my analysis results seem about the same as any others posted in the diesel UOA forum from those who have any type of bypass filter.

Quote:

As to not knowing GCF, dude, a filter is a filter. It's just one brand name among many. There are only so many roads to the same destination and after seeing their website a week or so ago when this first came up, I can see that GCF is nothing real different or special versus the dozens of other available systems. They are less upfront with efficiency data than most.


I don't think anyone here in this thread has suggested anything to the contrary. You seem to be acting like I'm trying to sell GCFs here and if so, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The little research I've personally done seems to show that *none* of the popular bypass filters are bad--they all seem to do what they claim. Your apparent attitude that I'm holding up my GCF and claiming superiority over all others is just silly, and couldn't be further from the truth. As you say, a filter is a filter.

I just tried to answer LITOA's questions as best I could based on the little experience I have with my GCF. That seems to have irritated or offended you on some level, and I'm not sure why.

Mike

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3096470 08/15/13 02:21 PM
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Jim Allen Offline
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Mike: I wasn't attacking you. I am not irritated, though the brevity of the internet often makes people come across that way. I am pressing intellectual points. Attacking your arguments, perhaps, but not you. I didn't call you names, nor insult your ancestry or intelligence, but I did my best to shred your arguments ... which is what an open forum is all about. My comment about your taking it personally was probably over the top but it seemed so at the time and your claiming I am "attacking" doesn't do anything to dispel it now... but let's just let that go.

As to the rest, you started off making claims about your system and how great your UOAs were. Turns out you have nothing to compare them to so you don't really know if they are good or not, or how good they are. I'm sure they are doing SOME good but the degree is unknown. That point is now settled.

With my tests of two different systems on two different trucks, I had manufacturers test data as well as before particle counts and UOAs, plus the after. The first system I had installed was somewhat underwhelming... it was a 10um Racor LFS... now out of production, but it did clean the oil. The second system, Racor's ABS is now on both my trucks but I don't have a lot of "after" data yet. The initial results look better so far. I will be posting some test results in the coming weeks and months as it plays out. You might be interested.

As to GCF, my gripe with them is lack of data. You can see test data from many bypass retailers but not much from them. That makes them suspect a little but like you said, it's got to be doing something. I just wouldn't buy something without knowing more than I got from the GCF site.

Probably the biggest reason to have my intellectual teeth into this is the paper towels/TP aspects. These systems have been hyped for decades yet you can find next to nothing scientific on them. People take on faith that they are great. I have long thought that's because they are the cheapest systems out there (those that are designed for TP). Faith in certain things is fine, if not wonderful. Love, hope, charity, religion, country. Faith in a product is different. Knowledge trumps faith in that regard. This is one aspect of life where you can really know so you don't need to take it on faith... and shouldn't. IMO.

Your advice to LITOA made him happy and was useful to him... but that doesn't end this. People will be looking at this thread for decades and the way I see it, less informed people could be drawing incorrect conclusions from some of what you said. This filter forum is one tiny place where I can set the record straight based on my knowledge and experience. My work exposes me to a lot of targeted information in this area and so I pass it along.

Last edited by Jim Allen; 08/15/13 02:22 PM.

Jim Allen
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Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: Jim Allen] #3096493 08/15/13 03:02 PM
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AlaskaMike Offline
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Jim, I actually made no great claims about my GCF filter, nor did I make any comments about how great my UOAs were. In reviewing my earlier posts, I see that the only claim I made is that I have no chunks of paper floating around in my oil.

You seem to have a great love of arguing--I don't. I find it tiring and tedious, so I'm going to stop here. Feel free to continue shredding all you like.

Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: AlaskaMike] #3096495 08/15/13 03:06 PM
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kschachn Offline
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You've mentioned that before, but exactly where would that show up in a UOA? And how would you know if stuff is coming off the roll, by your own statement it is all black and oily, how would you know 5 grams of roll came off?

And do not take this as "arguing" as you do with Jim, I'm just asking. Besides the "no flakes come off" statement, you also stated that if it were happening it would show up "in your analysis".

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
Quote:
I presume you are having no issues with the paper degrading to the point where it is flowing into the engine?


My pleasure, and no issues with paper floating around in the oil at all. If that were happening it would certainly be reflected in my analysis reports. Also, when I change out the paper towel roll, it comes out looking the same as it went in (except it's now all black and oily grin ). If it were disintegrating in the oil flow I expect it would look eroded or chunks would be missing--I definitely don't see either of that happening.

Mike


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Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3096516 08/15/13 03:35 PM
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Jim Allen Offline
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Fibers from paper that disintegrated would likely show up in a UOA... if nothing else as insolubles. If it happened, and I don't really think id does often unless the installer really drops the ball in some way, it would be some dribble. It would be catastrophic or not at all.

Mike: If you do more UOAs, post 'em. I'm interested to see. Don't even mind (much) being proven wrong if I can learn something out of the deal. ( : < )


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3096951 08/16/13 06:35 AM
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This whole disintegration thing had me thinking about my friend and his franz.
The tp rolls come out black but they look like they were dropped in a toilet,with no signs of eroding or anything.
He leaves them in for at least 20000kms in a cummins. So I would imagine a paper towel roll would look the same,just saturated.
They wick oil through the layers in the roll. He uses the institutional type rolls. They are single ply,very dense. No fluffy pleats or any cashmere.


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Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3096956 08/16/13 06:40 AM
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Hi all. I know this thread is almost dead but wanted to say that GCF does not use paper towels anymore. They have a layered media element now.


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Re: Gulf Coast Filter - Paper towel elements? [Re: LITOA] #3097049 08/16/13 08:16 AM
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Jim Allen Offline
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Yep, we know that and that's why the OP wanted to change back because the new elements are very expensive.


Jim Allen
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