A couple of weeks ago I did a post regarding finding a new piston for a gx200 clone engine, anyways I now have this piston and rings and Installed them and put about three hours in the engine however I pulled the head off the engine after that just to check everything was going fine and noticed there was a thin film of oil on the piston and there was a lot of carbon gunk on the head. I didn't hone the cylinder prior to installing the rings would the oil be a result of this?
Do you need to hone when changing rings
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I was taught to always hone with new rings as you want to break the glaze so the new rings would seat.
If you want your new rings to seat, you do.
You'd have completely wasted your time and money otherwise.
The cross hatch breaks in and seats the rings.
The cross hatch breaks in and seats the rings.
Hone or don't bother installing new rings, that's how I was taught.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Hone or don't bother installing new rings, that's how I was taught.
Plus 4. I was actually taught that its redneck even to just hone- that new rings really mean you need a reBORE and oversize piston. But I always stuck with the school of thought that said "if the ridge won't catch a fingernail, then honing is all you need." But yeah, hone. And hone with the correct grit stones for the type of rings you plan to use. Ductile iron needs a different cylinder finish than moly-faced rings.
Hone or don't bother installing new rings, that's how I was taught.
Plus 4. I was actually taught that its redneck even to just hone- that new rings really mean you need a reBORE and oversize piston. But I always stuck with the school of thought that said "if the ridge won't catch a fingernail, then honing is all you need." But yeah, hone. And hone with the correct grit stones for the type of rings you plan to use. Ductile iron needs a different cylinder finish than moly-faced rings.
If you can find a Ball Hone, small enough, use that. They are Very easy to use. Yes, you need to provide a New Mating surface for the New rings, which have a New mating surface. They Need to both be Rough, to Mate.
The rings will have a coating to help them break in on the freshly honed cylinder. now that it's been ran its going to need new rings again. or you can try the old comet cleanser down the carburetor trick
do u have to ?? No Should you Yesss if you want it done correctly
Originally Posted By: Chris142
The rings will have a coating to help them break in on the freshly honed cylinder. now that it's been ran its going to need new rings again. or you can try the old comet cleanser down the carburetor trick
YIKES AND AWAY!!!! It's "Bon Ami" that you're suppose to use!!! (And the original formula at that).
The rings will have a coating to help them break in on the freshly honed cylinder. now that it's been ran its going to need new rings again. or you can try the old comet cleanser down the carburetor trick
YIKES AND AWAY!!!! It's "Bon Ami" that you're suppose to use!!! (And the original formula at that).
Originally Posted By: 84zmyfavorite
If you can find a Ball Hone, small enough, use that. They are Very easy to use. Yes, you need to provide a New Mating surface for the New rings, which have a New mating surface. They Need to both be Rough, to Mate.
Are you talking about a "bottle brush" hone? If so, yes, very easy to use and very forgiving.
If you can find a Ball Hone, small enough, use that. They are Very easy to use. Yes, you need to provide a New Mating surface for the New rings, which have a New mating surface. They Need to both be Rough, to Mate.
Are you talking about a "bottle brush" hone? If so, yes, very easy to use and very forgiving.
Don't forget that the hone pattern is really there to hold oil. Sure it helps the rings break in and fit the cylinder with precision. However, we can easily manufacture things today with tolerances so tight, no break in is necessary. Yet, the cross hatch pattern remains.
Mitsubishi came up with a different and "better?" procedure, where cast iron, diesel, cylinder liners are laser etched, to produce "pits" that retain oil. No coarse and deep hone is used, just a plateau hone. The claim is significantly longer bore life.
In any case, the idea is to produce a "plateau hone" with deeper cuts for oil retention and a smooth top surface for low friction. Done properly, this requires multiple steps.
Mitsubishi 4M40 a 2.8 diesel. It looks like the classic laser etch to retain oil near the top of the bore. The etch pits are rather deep and quite small.
Mitsubishi came up with a different and "better?" procedure, where cast iron, diesel, cylinder liners are laser etched, to produce "pits" that retain oil. No coarse and deep hone is used, just a plateau hone. The claim is significantly longer bore life.
In any case, the idea is to produce a "plateau hone" with deeper cuts for oil retention and a smooth top surface for low friction. Done properly, this requires multiple steps.
Mitsubishi 4M40 a 2.8 diesel. It looks like the classic laser etch to retain oil near the top of the bore. The etch pits are rather deep and quite small.
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Ok i will by my self a hone today at my hard where store the bore is 70mm so if i can find a flex hone of that size i'll try that, however i am just abit confused weather i will need new rings or not my cylinder looks [img:left]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/c4jz.jpg/[/img] [img:left]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/2evz.jpg/[/img] [img:left]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/c4jz.jpg/[/img] like this at the moment
I highly doubt that your rings have worn much in the few hours you've run it.
It's standard practice to install new rings after a hone. It's likely the rings you have are simply cast iron, and won't have any problem being used again.
One easy way to tell is to measure the end gap, by placing the rings down into the cylinder about 1/4 the way down. If they are within spec, they will probably be fine. However, make sure the rings don't have other problems. Like uneven wear and so on.
The only problem is the rings must be removed from the piston for this.
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
It's standard practice to install new rings after a hone. It's likely the rings you have are simply cast iron, and won't have any problem being used again.
One easy way to tell is to measure the end gap, by placing the rings down into the cylinder about 1/4 the way down. If they are within spec, they will probably be fine. However, make sure the rings don't have other problems. Like uneven wear and so on.
The only problem is the rings must be removed from the piston for this.
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
Make sure after you hone that you clean the cylinder walls very well. Use Ajax or Comet and scrub, scrub, scrub. Rinse with water and use a white paper towel to dry. When the paper towel comes out white, you're ready to install your rings. If you use gasoline, kerosene or diesel fuel to clean your bore, you will "float" the honing particles deeper into the cross hatch pattern and when the rings are re-installed, they will continue to hone the cylinder and dramatically reduce engine life.
as far as re-using the old rings is concerned, I'd say it's six one way and half a dozen the other. If it were me, I would go ahead and spring for new rings for the simple reason that if the old ones don't work, you're taking the motor apart again and having to buy new gaskets, seals plus the time and work to do it all over again. My thinking is re-using these old rings, (even with the limited time on them) might be penny wise, pound foolish.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
I've heard this as well and done it myself, but I never understood the reason why, (I was told to do it and did it). Can you please explain why it is necessary to use a non-detergent oil on break in?
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
I've heard this as well and done it myself, but I never understood the reason why, (I was told to do it and did it). Can you please explain why it is necessary to use a non-detergent oil on break in?
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
I've heard this as well and done it myself, but I never understood the reason why, (I was told to do it and did it). Can you please explain why it is necessary to use a non-detergent oil on break in?
First thing: I don't use ND oil for break in on my lawn equipment or my cars, motorcycles or other equipment. It's not necessary, period.
It is necessary in aircraft. As the cylinders are large and become fairly imprecise while hot. Getting rings to seat under such awful conditions requires all the tricks in the book. Including operation at high power settings, while monitoring temps. Those aircraft owners who "know better" can, and often do, end up with oil consumption issues that never resolve.
However, in this case, he has an issue with his air cooled OPE engine with oil getting past the rings. Clearly, his piston rings have not seated. The use of straight 30 oil, an aggressive enough hone coupled with brief periods of high load operation will ensure proper seating and proper service life.
I'm not making the claim it's 100% necessary. But, I hate doing projects over and over again. Hence the suggestion to ensure success.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Upon re-assembly, use engine oil to lube everything and use straight 30W non detergent oil for break in. It might seem like an old wives tale, but it's 100% necessary on aircraft engines. Lawn equipment is not that different... It simply works.
I've heard this as well and done it myself, but I never understood the reason why, (I was told to do it and did it). Can you please explain why it is necessary to use a non-detergent oil on break in?
First thing: I don't use ND oil for break in on my lawn equipment or my cars, motorcycles or other equipment. It's not necessary, period.
It is necessary in aircraft. As the cylinders are large and become fairly imprecise while hot. Getting rings to seat under such awful conditions requires all the tricks in the book. Including operation at high power settings, while monitoring temps. Those aircraft owners who "know better" can, and often do, end up with oil consumption issues that never resolve.
However, in this case, he has an issue with his air cooled OPE engine with oil getting past the rings. Clearly, his piston rings have not seated. The use of straight 30 oil, an aggressive enough hone coupled with brief periods of high load operation will ensure proper seating and proper service life.
I'm not making the claim it's 100% necessary. But, I hate doing projects over and over again. Hence the suggestion to ensure success.
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Originally Posted By: Chris142
The rings will have a coating to help them break in on the freshly honed cylinder. now that it's been ran its going to need new rings again. or you can try the old comet cleanser down the carburetor trick
YIKES AND AWAY!!!! It's "Bon Ami" that you're suppose to use!!! (And the original formula at that).
Ha. I thought it was BAB-O you were suppose to use.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
The rings will have a coating to help them break in on the freshly honed cylinder. now that it's been ran its going to need new rings again. or you can try the old comet cleanser down the carburetor trick
YIKES AND AWAY!!!! It's "Bon Ami" that you're suppose to use!!! (And the original formula at that).
Ha. I thought it was BAB-O you were suppose to use.
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