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Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: JethroBodine] #3080492 07/30/13 06:17 AM
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supton Offline
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Originally Posted By: JethroBodine

But you can shut off the seat belt chime. You program it off with the odometer display. Go on Toyota Nation and look it up. I have shut it off on my last 3 vehicles. BTW WS is not a lifetime fluid. I won't go past 70k.


Thanks; will look into that (usually only drive truck on weekends).

Was hoping to change the 75kmile WS in the truck this summer, but just not going to happen too soon. I was going to but got overwhelmed by the task. Maybe in a couple weeks I will. What is your thought on WS vs Maxlife, if I may ask? Maxlife is about half the price.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 187k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 153k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 209k, his
Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: supton] #3081082 07/30/13 05:21 PM
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greenjp Offline OP
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Heh, there are always a few of 'em.

Yes I have two Master's degrees, University of Maryland and Naval Postgraduate School. It makes me a well educated engineer but not an auto mechanic wink But, I'm certainly competent enough to change the oil on a car (see the hundred or so oil changes I've done and numerous other much more complex jobs on cars and motorcycles), and in hindsight I should have spent a little time researching this job ahead of time (as supton says, the owner's manual which I did consult provides no information).

However the point of my rant (which some of you didn't entirely get) was that there is no justifiable reason for an oil change job to require research - there are better ways for the manufacturer to design this particular maintenance procedure. The other cars I've done with cartridge filters didn't involve special tools or extra steps. It's a bad design.

Now bring on some more insults LOL

jeff

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: greenjp] #3081111 07/30/13 05:46 PM
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PandaBear Offline
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There are $10 tool in Toyota dealership made out of stamp steel that work just as great. I've bought a bunch and sold a bunch (but not enough profit to keep doing it anymore) and no one has ever came back to complain.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: greenjp] #3081659 07/31/13 08:19 AM
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JethroBodine Offline
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Originally Posted By: greenjp

It's a bad design.


Define "bad".......... LOL

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: PandaBear] #3081661 07/31/13 08:21 AM
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JethroBodine Offline
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
There are $10 tool in Toyota dealership made out of stamp steel that work just as great. I've bought a bunch and sold a bunch (but not enough profit to keep doing it anymore) and no one has ever came back to complain.



IIRC I have had to buy an oil filter wrench for many of my cars, boats and motorcycles...must be a lot of "bad" designs out there..... LOL

Oh darn...needed a 14MM wrench to loosen the drain bolt. They really should put a fumoto valve on all cars so you don't need tools at all.

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: JethroBodine] #3081678 07/31/13 08:44 AM
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greenjp Offline OP
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Like I said there's always a few of 'em shrug Glad I'm amusing you Jethro, keep working on your logical fallacies.

It's a bad design because it requires the following:
- special tool
- extra training
- unnecessarily complex procedure

As I've repeated and you've failed to absorb, a "good" filter design requires standard tools (this one was not found in my reasonbly extensive collection or at three auto parts stores, could only find the $30 one at the Toyota dealer. This alone establishes that this isn't exactly a standard item), no training (ie any half-competent person could figure it out without referencing a manual or the web, this is a routine maintenance operation), and fewer steps. I'll spare a lecture on design for maintainability and usability.

See the process on the GM Ecotecs, my old Saab, BMWs, MBs as referenced by previous posters for better examples. My motorcycle has a cartridge filter and it's extremely simple to replace. I get that you don't think this procedure is all that bad and perhaps it really isn't, but that doesn't change the fact that much better designs exist and no one has yet provided a decent justification for this one.

Now bring on some more lame putdowns! LOL

jeff

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: greenjp] #3081705 07/31/13 09:12 AM
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kschachn Offline
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Insults. Yeah, that's the way people who are insecure handle criticism of their beliefs.

But to the point, how do you know there is "no justifiable reason" for the design of this oil filter housing? So what if the other cars you have worked on don't have this design? What do you know about Toyota engineering? If that oil filter housing causes you so much grief you should never work on a BMW with all their "superior German engineering". You will have a stroke before you are done trying to remove the plastic radiator clips.

I guess those two masters degrees qualified you to read minds, or think you understand engine design better than Toyota.

And that's not an insult, it is a logical conclusion from your statements.

Originally Posted By: greenjp
However the point of my rant (which some of you didn't entirely get) was that there is no justifiable reason for an oil change job to require research - there are better ways for the manufacturer to design this particular maintenance procedure. The other cars I've done with cartridge filters didn't involve special tools or extra steps. It's a bad design.

Now bring on some more insults LOL

jeff


1994 BMW 530i, 246K
1996 Honda Accord, 280K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 420K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 281K
Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: kschachn] #3081752 07/31/13 09:56 AM
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Hootbro Offline
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Originally Posted By: kschachn

I guess those two masters degrees qualified you to read minds, or think you understand engine design better than Toyota.

And that's not an insult, it is a logical conclusion from your statements.



People that flaunt their Academia credentials in that regard are setting up the preface that they know better and all other viewpoints are invalid. Common among engineers as I am one myself. I work with other engineers who have 140+ IQ's but wear shoes with Velcro strap laces.


2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon 3.6L (Factory Fill 0W-20)
2017 Jeep Renegade Latitude 2.4L (Idemitsu 0W-20)

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: Hootbro] #3081799 07/31/13 10:38 AM
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greenjp Offline OP
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And the hits keep coming. Funny how a simple story of frustration told with some hyperbole brings out the best in people hide

As I said, those two master's degrees make me nothing more than a well-educated engineer - certainly not a mind reader and I've already admitted it doesn't make me a mechanic. I'm happy to take my cars or bike in to a shop when I think a diagnosis or job is beyond my abilities (ie I know when other people know better than me). Simply mentioned it to establish that I have some reason for thinking I have insight into good design practices, just like saying that I've done a hundred oil changes establishes that I know how to change oil. You guys imagined & projected the rest.

As for thinking I know more than Toyota regarding engine design, I certainly wouldn't and didn't say that, you keep putting words in my mouth. We're only talking about oil filters here, and as I've said ad nauseum countless better examples exist and that's enough for me to render a judgement. I've yet to be presented with a single reason for why the Toyota design is a good alternative to the others. I guess I can't comment on this until someone from Toyota engineering chimes in?

To listen to some of you, it would be improper to question the design of anything on these cars - if BMW's radiator clips are stroke-inducing doesn't that suggest there's a better way? Could the same not be true of Toyota's oil filter housing? Haven't you ever found a procedure on one car to be more difficult and frustrating than the same on another? Been frustrated by some proprietary component?

FWIW I've found the cartridge filter on my aunt's 90's era 5 series to be perfectly good - easy access from the top, opens with a simple wrench, doesn't spill a drop. And replacing the window rollers on it wasn't any more difficult than the power window repairs I've done on other cars. Don't have much more experience with BMWs to evaluate the rest of their superior German engineering though grin

jeff

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: greenjp] #3082035 07/31/13 03:12 PM
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JethroBodine Offline
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Originally Posted By: greenjp

It's a bad design because it requires the following:
- special tool
- extra training
- unnecessarily complex procedure


special tool- I have used a strap wrench on them
extra training- wrapping the strap wrench around the canister OR pushing the tool onto the canister.
unnecessarily complex procedure- lefty loosey/righty tighty

Ok you win........ LOL

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: kschachn] #3083436 08/02/13 01:44 AM
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moving2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
How do you know there is "no justifiable reason" for the design of this oil filter housing? So what if the other cars you have worked on don't have this design? What do you know about Toyota engineering?


kschachn- and how do you know Toyota didn't use this design to lead more people into their dealerships for service / tools? This seems to be the more common sense answer vs. your hand-waving "magical engineering" assumption. Afterall, making the oil filter work with a standard oil filter wrench isn't rocket science.


'97 Lexus LX450 135K- PU 5w40
'94 Lexus LS400 111K- PU 5w40
'63 Dodge Travco 25K- Rotella T6 5w40
Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: JethroBodine] #3083437 08/02/13 02:06 AM
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moving2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: JethroBodine

special tool- I have used a strap wrench on them
extra training- wrapping the strap wrench around the canister OR pushing the tool onto the canister.
unnecessarily complex procedure- lefty loosey/righty tighty

Ok you win........ LOL


JethroBodine- and with all your ad hominem attacks and humorless insults, you lose.

greenjp's points stand:
Originally Posted By: greenjp

It's a bad design because it requires the following:
- special tool
- extra training
- unnecessarily complex procedure


Earlier Toyotas are much more easily serviced when it comes to things like oil changes and tranny fluid, and it has little to do with this magical oil filter related "technical sophistication" that you have yet to describe. It has more to do with bringing more customers in to dealerships. The fact you choose to ignore this possibility and instead point to some hand-waving "technical sophistication" without explanation only exposes your ignorance.

It's also funny (no, not really) that you never mentioned using a strap wrench in your earlier post, instead pointing to an aftermarket tool. You only bring it up now for another failed attempt at an insult. Sorry, you lose all around, my friend.


'97 Lexus LX450 135K- PU 5w40
'94 Lexus LS400 111K- PU 5w40
'63 Dodge Travco 25K- Rotella T6 5w40
Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: moving2] #3083511 08/02/13 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: moving2

kschachn- and how do you know Toyota didn't use this design to lead more people into their dealerships for service / tools? This seems to be the more common sense answer vs. your hand-waving "magical engineering" assumption. Afterall, making the oil filter work with a standard oil filter wrench isn't rocket science.



Toyota and other car makers are going to cartridge style filters because it is "greener" in terms of wast and recycle costs.

Processing traditional metal can filters for recycling is a pain as most still retain quite a bit oil that has to be squeezed out and then the media separated from metal can for the metal to be recycled.


2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon 3.6L (Factory Fill 0W-20)
2017 Jeep Renegade Latitude 2.4L (Idemitsu 0W-20)

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: Hootbro] #3083537 08/02/13 07:41 AM
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JethroBodine Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: moving2

kschachn- and how do you know Toyota didn't use this design to lead more people into their dealerships for service / tools? This seems to be the more common sense answer vs. your hand-waving "magical engineering" assumption. Afterall, making the oil filter work with a standard oil filter wrench isn't rocket science.



Toyota and other car makers are going to cartridge style filters because it is "greener" in terms of wast and recycle costs.

Processing traditional metal can filters for recycling is a pain as most still retain quite a bit oil that has to be squeezed out and then the media separated from metal can for the metal to be recycled.



+1 Exactly....that apparently has eluded some "engineers".

Re: Toyota oil filter housing rant [Re: JethroBodine] #3083777 08/02/13 12:23 PM
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greenjp Offline OP
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The reduction in materials use with a cartridge filter is a legitimate improvement, however that in itself is no justification for Toyota's particular implementation, which is the subject of the discussion. See GM, BMW, Mercedes, et al for a canister filter implementation that achieves this benefit while avoiding the pitfalls of Toyota's.

jeff

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