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Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3064721
07/13/13 10:19 PM
07/13/13 10:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
You answer my question first:

Quote:
Are you speaking to Manual Transmission oils exclusively?


Quote:
The Pennzoil Synchromesh is ONLY for some GM and Chrysler vehicles and it is NOT GL-4 spec even though Pennzoil "claims" it is safe for use with yellow metals in manual transmissions.


Who told you it wasn't a GL-4 MTL? Yes it is a GL-4 spec oil because it contains a GL-4 protection additive package.

See my list of MTL GL-4 oils for synchronized transmissions at the end of the post:

MTL GL-4 Lubricants of Various Viscosities

Quote:
Many of us have European cars with manual gear boxes that specifically state that ONLY GL-4 spec 75w-90 be used.


Oh boy, here we go again.

For example and for discussion purposes, here is a gear oil made by Amsoil that carries a GL-4 and GL-5 rating.

Amsoil Marine Gear Lube

Now, please tell us why the above oil is better than these MTL Specific GL-4 transmission lubes below such as

Amsoil MTG

or

Redline MTG MTL

which have GL-4 additive packages.

As far as your gripe with Shell, I would ask them why them don't market the oils in the US. Personally, I don't think their costs would be any lower than Amsoil or Redline.

If you purchase a foreign car with with a weird lube spec then you may have to deal with the often expensive fluid requirements.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/13/13 10:25 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3065262
07/14/13 03:39 PM
07/14/13 03:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
antiqueshell Offline OP
antiqueshell  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
I am speaking of manual gear boxes. There are still plenty in the world and plenty are still even sold in the USA. Not to mention that the majority of passenger vehicles in Europe still use a manual transmission box with synchronized gears.

As for Pennzoil Synchromesh I see nowhere in their data sheet that the fluid meets GL-4 specifications. Please direct me to where you see that on an official up to date SOPUS sheet.

Also we don't know what the viscosity of that gear oil is, I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the product itself or the data sheets.

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065342
07/14/13 06:37 PM
07/14/13 06:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA

Front Page:

Front Page General Description

Right below the bottle image is the PDS


PDF of PDS

The Performance Improvement additive package is a typical GL-4
additive package. I know, I have analyzed it. The viscosity tests anywhere from 9.0 to 9.7 cSt, depending on the Lab.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/14/13 06:38 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065358
07/14/13 06:54 PM
07/14/13 06:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
I guess the point I was making in post #3064721 did not somehow register.

Here was the point:

A GL-4 rating for a gear lube signifies a certain level of protection for bearings and protection for gear configurations that do not have a high loading. Loading here means the amount of torque experienced and the forces and reactions on gear teeth and thrust washers.

A generic GL-4 gear lube such as the Amsoil Marine Gear Lube and others, DO NOT CONTAIN the friction modification chemistry necessary for synchronizer assemblies.

In other words, a generic GL-4 gear lube is NOT EQUAL to an Application Specific Manual Transmission Lubricant with a GL-4 rating.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/14/13 06:56 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3065385
07/14/13 07:34 PM
07/14/13 07:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
antiqueshell Offline OP
antiqueshell  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
I looked closely at the Syncromesh data sheet and NOWHERE on it does it state it meets API GL-4 specification.


Plus that viscosity appears to be pretty thin, must be lower than 75w, correct?

I understand what you are saying about certain general gear lubes FM not being adequate for synchronized gear boxes.


--------------------------------------------
bottom line for me....


What is the viscosity of Pennzoil Synchromesh in traditional API weight?


Does Pennzoil Synchromesh pass the

ATSM D-130 copper corrosion test with a
1a or 1b classification.

Can I use it in my 1996 Volkswagen Golf GL
with 5 sp manual transmission?

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065435
07/14/13 08:20 PM
07/14/13 08:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
Quote:


--------------------------------------------
bottom line for me....


What is the viscosity of Pennzoil Synchromesh in traditional API weight?



Forget about the weight and think Kinematic Viscosity. The SAE grade system is ambiguous.

But.... a 75W90 MTL has a Kinematic Viscosity close to 14.5 cSt, which is what you need.

So the Pennzoil Synchromesh is not thick enough for your Golf's transmission.

The Amsoil MTG, the Redline MT-90, or the Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 has that viscosity.


Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065445
07/14/13 08:27 PM
07/14/13 08:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I looked closely at the Syncromesh data sheet and NOWHERE on it does it state it meets API GL-4 specification.



No it doesn't say that specifically.

But as I stated before, the additive package conforms to a GL-4 protection level additive package.


Quote:


Does Pennzoil Synchromesh pass the

ATSM D-130 copper corrosion test with a
1a or 1b classification.




All MTL fluids must pass as a minimum the 1B test.

Metal inhibitors are part of the additive package.


Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3065494
07/14/13 09:09 PM
07/14/13 09:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
antiqueshell Offline OP
antiqueshell  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


All MTL fluids must pass as a minimum the 1B test.

Metal inhibitors are part of the additive package.


How about GL-4 spec oils which rating do they need to meet to get that API spec on the ASTM D-130 test?

1a, 1b, or which?

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065556
07/14/13 10:52 PM
07/14/13 10:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


All MTL fluids must pass as a minimum the 1B test.

Metal inhibitors are part of the additive package.


How about GL-4 spec oils which rating do they need to meet to get that API spec on the ASTM D-130 test?

1a, 1b, or which?



You're confused again and mixing up terminology.

Society of Automotive Engineers, the SAE, defines the GL-X protection ratings for gear lubes.

American Society for Testing of Materials, the ASTM, defines most of the bench type mechanical and chemical tests.

The API deals mainly with motor oils.

Since we're discussing MTL's, why bring up generic GL-4's?


Last edited by MolaKule; 07/14/13 10:55 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3065596
07/15/13 12:16 AM
07/15/13 12:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
antiqueshell Offline OP
antiqueshell  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
chicago, Illinois
Actually GL-4 seems to denote safe for yellow metals. Correct?

In order for that oil to meet GL-4 it also must pass the ASTM D-130 test with certain standards for corrosion. There is 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, and so one.

It seems that a number of recent GL-5, MT-1 oils are capable of meeting that ASTM D-130 test with the second least corrosive result 1b.

So I would guess that GL-4 oil would need to pass with a 1a? Correct?

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3065809
07/15/13 10:09 AM
07/15/13 10:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,298
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I looked closely at the Syncromesh data sheet and NOWHERE on it does it state it meets API GL-4 specification.



No it doesn't say that specifically.

But as I stated before, the additive package conforms to a GL-4 protection level additive package.


Quote:


Does Pennzoil Synchromesh pass the

ATSM D-130 copper corrosion test with a
1a or 1b classification.




All MTL fluids must pass as a minimum the 1B test.

Metal inhibitors are part of the additive package.


Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3066266
07/15/13 04:43 PM
07/15/13 04:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,663
Idaho
SubLGT Offline
SubLGT  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,663
Idaho
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...................For the majority of light truck and passenger car vehicles with Manual Transmissions, a GL-4 rating is all that is needed.

There are exceptions such as Subaru which apparently specs GL-5 MTL's, but they are the exception, so why should I make a GL-5 MTL when the market would not currently support an exception.

I suspect that in the future if and when Suburu's become more numerous and stay in the market, more companies will supply GL-5 and dual rated MTL's.


Motul Gear 300 75W90 is rated as API GL4 and GL5 / MIL-L-2105D and described by MOTUL as appropriate for use in: "All mechanical transmission, synchronized or not synchronized gearboxes, gearbox/differential, transfer gearboxes and hypoid differentials without limited slip system operating under shocks, heavy loads and low revolution speed or moderate loads and high revolution speed."

http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/gear-300-75w90-1l/

Do you know of other dual rated GL4/GL5 gear oils suitable for use in synchronized manual transmissions?

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3067894
07/17/13 09:29 AM
07/17/13 09:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 170
Southeastern, USA
camelCase Offline
camelCase  Offline
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 170
Southeastern, USA
There are plenty of boutique producers around that offer great GL-4 MTL fluids. Rockland Standard Gear has a sm150 that I've used in my 6-speed Mazda and it's [censored] good. Seems people only focus on the big guys like RP, shell, castol, etc. and totally ignore the boutique guys that offer great products.

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3076973
07/26/13 01:22 PM
07/26/13 01:22 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,289
Bolivia
widman Offline
widman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,289
Bolivia
Interesting comments, and yes, my paper could be updated, but I did not try to differentiate GL-4 from MTL. That is another story. Most of the MTL products are thinner than what is required in classic cars, which is what I was specifically targeting.

My main point is that a GL-5 is overkill for the transmission and, from experience in many root cause analysis and UOA, I can very easily confirm that GL-5 in a manual transmission will wear down your synchronizers. I have seen car manuals and oil advertising that says you can use GL-5. Yes you can. But from my experience you will pay dearly in performance and repairs.

A couple of weeks ago the service guy from Mitsubishi wrote to me to ask why the transmission got hard to shift when he did the first change from factory fluid to GL-4 SAE 75W-90. Of course my answer was easy. Mitsubishi recommends a GL-3 SAE 75W-80 in those transmissions. He changed to that fluid and became a happy camper.

Europe uses mostly SAE 50 Diesel or TO-4 fluids in aftermarket services for transmissions. There is a Lubrizol study on that.

There are no MTL's in this market. One of these days I'll probably be the first to launch it, but there are bigger issues at the moment. For those that need MTL, I use a 5W-30 CI-4 group IV Synthetic and people are so happy with the results that I leave the MTL battle for later. MTL's carry about $100 premium over traditional GL-4 (wholesale drum).

My qualifications are 17 years in this business, lots of on-line studies and Chevron courses, about 5000 UOA, and dis-assembly or inspection of dozens (maybe hundreds) of engines and transmissions for root cause analysis.

I look to Molakule and various associates in Linked-in for the chemical details of what I see in the field.

That paper is the English version of one of 120 papers I've written on maintenance.

Last edited by widman; 07/26/13 01:23 PM.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: camelCase] #3077098
07/26/13 04:00 PM
07/26/13 04:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 137
Parma - Italy
Wolf_Tm250 Offline
Wolf_Tm250  Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 137
Parma - Italy
Originally Posted By: camelCase
There are plenty of boutique producers around that offer great GL-4 MTL fluids.


Yes, this is what I found too!
I'm currently using a small italian company oil that is working greatly in my synchronized box, that is a GL-4, full synth, 90 @ 40°, 14.7 @ 100°, 160 VI and EP rated.


TM Enduro 250cc 2stroke
Suzuki GSX-R 600 Nakedized
Toyota Celica Gt-Four ST205 Gr.B [2.34kg/bhp]
EFI University mapper
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