Recent Topics
Deleted vs Non-Deleted UOA
by oakaro68 - 10/18/19 05:30 AM
3.2 V6 Cayenne oil help
by Abax25 - 10/18/19 04:16 AM
Can cops sit in the median with no lights on at night time?
by motor_oil_madman - 10/18/19 12:24 AM
2012-2014 Lexus GS350 AWD Reliability?
by GZRider - 10/17/19 10:28 PM
Switch to High Mileage Oil or No?
by Blake1107 - 10/17/19 10:21 PM
Found this funny
by taztheman - 10/17/19 10:04 PM
How much gas to start a 3L or larger engine?
by paulri - 10/17/19 09:54 PM
Syneresis, learned a new word today!
by Cujet - 10/17/19 09:28 PM
What is more important in an oil?
by Rglossip - 10/17/19 08:03 PM
Chevy 2.4 Oil Burner Oil/Filter Change?
by GaryPoe - 10/17/19 07:57 PM
2016 F150 2.7 UOA 4k
by tomcruise - 10/17/19 07:13 PM
Mobil1 5W-30, 8,200mi, 2017 Expl 2.3EBBB
by Whimsey - 10/17/19 07:01 PM
How To Avoid Deer?
by Passport1 - 10/17/19 06:41 PM
Mazda6 P0401 code
by miden851 - 10/17/19 06:15 PM
2004 Crown Vic shock/ struts recommendation
by umungus1122 - 10/17/19 06:12 PM
Undercarriage pics of my 2003 E46 330Ci ZSP
by SLO_Town - 10/17/19 06:11 PM
Porter Cable air compressor not shutting off
by JLawrence08648 - 10/17/19 06:06 PM
OCI older car, modern oil
by VQLT - 10/17/19 05:24 PM
Newest Members
JCunningham, TomStackhouse, Drinksprite, jmichels, Collins92
69594 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
64 registered members (Bjornviken, AdditiveOCD, BigCahuna, billt460, 1960Elco, 2010Civic, 7 invisible), 1,025 guests, and 20 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics296,125
Posts5,091,623
Members69,594
Most Online3,532
Jul 30th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. #3062144 07/11/13 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
It can't be said enough that if your vehicle calls for
GL-4 Gear Oil, you should NEVER use GL-4+ or GL-5. Only use GL-4!



Differences between GL-4 and GL-5 spec gear oils

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3062191 07/11/13 05:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
THIS IS THE CRITICAL ASPECT OF THE DIFFERENCES:

"When someone tells you that their GL-5 covers GL-4, remember they are correct as far as EP
protection, but that is only half the answer.

When they say their Sulfur/Phosphorous additive will not
corrode the yellow metals, they are also correct, but if there are enough to meet GL-5 protection, they
will slowly peel away your brass synchronizers."

Last edited by antiqueshell; 07/11/13 05:53 PM.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3062633 07/12/13 04:27 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,140
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,140
Interesting. However ...

This is a pet-peev of mine ...

Who is this guy, what are his credentials, and why (after 10 pages) does he not have some appendix of sources, credits, references, etc? I'm not saying his work is unsound; I'm just left wondering who he is and why I should believe him.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3062789 07/12/13 09:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
Jim Allen Offline
Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
Dave: Surprised you haven't been on Widman's site (www.widman.biz) or read his contributions here over many years. He is an ex-pat American that runs an oil distribution/service company in the "outback" of Bolivia. Not sure what his education or training is but all of his material I've read passed my admittedly non-lube-professional smell test.

I believe this was written for a Corvair enthusiast's site. It's no more or less "legit" than anything you, I or any other non-lubrication-professional has contributed to BITOG. And for all I know, since he is working in the lubrication industry, it's possible he has credentials beyond long field experience. As to the article, the context was likely found in it's original environment... namely a Corvair forum where his expertise was perhaps better known.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063225 07/12/13 04:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
Widman is a cool dude but has somewhat obsolete data in this paper as do some of my white papers (which needs updating).

We need to context this paper. I believe Mr. Widman (and he can correct me if necessary) wrote this about the time that some manfactureres were recomending that synchronized Manual transmissions (especially Honda) should be lubricated with motor oils such as 5W30's etc. About the same time MTL's specifically formulated for manual transmissions were appearing on the market. So there was confusion about what MTL fluids should be used.

To clarify a couple of points, the GL-4 wear protection rating for MTL's came mainly from a combination of ZDDP and sulferized, buffered olefins, and not from a Sulfur-Phosphorus (S-P) "Exteme Pressure" additive package used for differential lubricants.

As explained elsewhere in other White Papers on Manual Transmission Lubricants, the Performance Improvement (PI) package (additive package) for synchronized manual transmissions also contain a host of other chemistries for shift improvement (specialty friction modifiers), rust prevention, metal inhibitors, emulsifiers for moisture intrusion, etc.

In many MTL formulations of late, you will see lower phosphorus levels (anti-wear), and very low levels of zinc. The low level of zinc will come from a low treatment level of ZDDP for anti-oxidant purposes only. The phos will be one of the anti-wear components. The other anti-wear components will not be detected in a conventional VOA.

Early on, the only available application specific MTLs were 75W90 or 14.5 cSt lubricants. Later, due to cold weather shiftability problems, Texaco, GM, and Pennzoil brought to the market the 5W30 or 10.X cSt viscosities.

Since the time of his writing, there has been a host of new transmission designs and formulations brought to the market.


For a list of current application specific, GL-4 MTL's of various viscosities, see the last post here:

Paper on Manual Transmission Lubricants

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/12/13 05:05 PM.

"You ... sadist," said Mr Cummings, "you try to make people think." Ezra Pound (1885-1972)
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063318 07/12/13 07:33 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,140
dnewton3 Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,140
Thank you, guys. That gives me some idea of his position. It's a good read; just wondered what his perspective was as I read.

Also, it did seem to me to be a bit out of date, so to speak. What is written is only as relative as the period cycle it exists in. I often have to update my data logs to reflect the shifts in lubes.

Last edited by dnewton3; 07/12/13 07:34 PM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063426 07/12/13 09:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
The point I was making is that even the engineers at the major lubricant companies agree with his premise that it isn't the corrosion factor that is the issue using a GL-5 rated product in a application that calls only for GL-4, it is the ability of the chemicals to literally delaminate the brass or bronze plating off the syncros.

The proof of the concern can be found in a customer query to a Mobil Lubricants specialist that replied to a concern about using a GL-5 lube in a GL-4 application as well. And the fact that MOST all the major oil and lube companies around the world offer GL-4 rated gear oils in various viscosity combinations. The question I have is WHY in the US is this not the case. It seems more than odd.

From Mobil.com site:


Question:
Clarify Comments on Use of GL-5 vs. GL-4 Gear Oil
Concerning the GL-5 gear oil, on your website you state the following: "Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Lubricant LS 75W-90 can also be used in rear axles where API Service GL-4 lubricant is recommended." However, you also say in this "Ask Mobil" section that: "Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear Oil is recommended for all applications where a GL-5 lubricant is specified. GL-5 type lubricants, which have a higher level of additive chemistry, can be corrosive to yellow metals such as copper, brass, etc., and in these applications a GL-4 product is usually specified." Can you clarify this disconnect here? Thank you.
-- John Goetz, Newport News, VA


Answer:
There are transmission applications that recommend API GL-4 type products where we would not recommend using an API GL-5 fluid because transmissions typically have components made from “yellow” metals. However real axles where GL-4 fluids are recommended do not have “yellow” metal components. As a result, the application of an API GL-5 fluid is acceptable.

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063559 07/12/13 11:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
Quote:
it is the ability of the chemicals to literally delaminate the brass or bronze plating off the syncros.


The synchro mating components in synchronized manual transmissions are either solid brass alloys or solid composite structures. They cannot delaminate.

What we had there in the Q&A exchange was a confused questioner who was uneducated in gear lubes, and a responder from Mobil who didn't know what he was talking about.

Again, GL-4 and GL-5 are protection ratings. A GL-4 gear oil can be a lube which offers protection for lightly loaded gear trains, whereas a GL-5 gear lube is for highly loaded hypoid differentials or HD truck transmissions.

A Manual Transmission lube is usually rated GL-4 because the gear train is not as highly loaded as a hypoid differential.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/12/13 11:57 PM.

"You ... sadist," said Mr Cummings, "you try to make people think." Ezra Pound (1885-1972)
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063628 07/13/13 03:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
INDYMAC Offline
Offline
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
I believe the only current API gear oil ratings are MT-1 and GL-5. Everything else is obsolete and has no oversight. But I'm not sure if gear oils ever had much oversight by API. It would be nice if PQIA could get involved with gear oil some day.


2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4X4 5.7L FFV
2012 Toyota 4Runner 2WD SR5
2004 Honda S2000
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3063812 07/13/13 09:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
From

API Gear Oils and GL-4


Quote:
A second method is to document performance by running selected tests that are similar to the original API GL-4 tests listed in ASTM STP 512A. However, technical judgment is required to make a proper choice of test method and test results, and varies greatly within the industry, said Buzdygon.


And from

Lubrizol - Gear Oil Classifications

Quote:
API Category GL-4 designates the type of service characteristic of spiral-bevel and hypoid gears in automotive axles operated under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications.


While the GL-4 rating may be obsolete, the industry has to have a gear protection rating for gear loadings that are lower than in high offset differentials, and one applicable for manual transmissions.

Until a better and more well defined rating comes along, the GL-4 rating is the rating in which we have to work.


"You ... sadist," said Mr Cummings, "you try to make people think." Ezra Pound (1885-1972)
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3064000 07/13/13 12:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Until a better and more well defined rating comes along, the GL-4 rating is the rating in which we have to work.


And with the glaring EXCEPTION of the US and Canada, the lubricant industry and the leading oil companies like Mobil, Shell, Valvoline, Citgo, BP (Castrol) and most others have agreed because in the rest of the world, they continue to sell many lines of GL-4 rated lubricants which include 75w-90, 80w-90, and other viscosity.

Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3064110 07/13/13 02:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Until a better and more well defined rating comes along, the GL-4 rating is the rating in which we have to work.


And with the glaring EXCEPTION of the US and Canada, the lubricant industry and the leading oil companies like Mobil, Shell, Valvoline, Citgo, BP (Castrol) and most others have agreed because in the rest of the world, they continue to sell many lines of GL-4 rated lubricants which include 75w-90, 80w-90, and other viscosity.


Forgive me, but I do not see your point.

Many companies have dual-rated lubricants, but most are for industrial gearbox and mainly differential applications.

For the majority of light truck and passenger car vehicles with Manual Transmissions, a GL-4 rating is all that is needed.

There are exceptions such as Subaru which apparently specs GL-5 MTL's, but they are the exception, so why should I make a GL-5 MTL when the market would not currently support an exception.

I suspect that in the future if and when Suburu's become more numerous and stay in the market, more companies will supply GL-5 and dual rated MTL's.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/13/13 02:15 PM.

"You ... sadist," said Mr Cummings, "you try to make people think." Ezra Pound (1885-1972)
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3064243 07/13/13 04:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
You misunderstood my point.

That it is VERY difficult, almost IMPOSSIBLE today in the US to find a major oil company brand of GL-4 ONLY gear oil.

Try and find a bottle of 75w-90 or even 80w-90 GL-4 spec oil that is made by other than Amsoil or Redline. The consumer cannot readily find it. Amsoil and Redline products are expensive and overkill for most ordinary passenger cars with manual transmissions.

Last edited by antiqueshell; 07/13/13 04:54 PM.
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: antiqueshell] #3064400 07/13/13 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
MolaKule Offline
Global Moderator
Offline
Global Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 20,457
Quote:
That it is VERY difficult, almost IMPOSSIBLE today in the US to find a major oil company brand of GL-4 ONLY gear oil.

Try and find a bottle of 75w-90 or even 80w-90 GL-4 spec oil that is made by other than Amsoil or Redline. The consumer cannot readily find it. Amsoil and Redline products are expensive and overkill for most ordinary passenger cars with manual transmissions.




Are you speaking to Manual Transmission oils exclusively?

Pennzoil makes a Manual Transmission Oil called Pennzoil Synchromesh.

I suspect the major oil companies don't see a large enough market for the the 14 cSt (75W90) type MTLs, which is why Amsoil and Redline fill that void with their niche product.

I disagree with your statement about them being expensive and overkill. A simple GL-4 gear oil (non-MTL) for general gearbox use does not have all of the components necessary for proper synchro performance in an MTL.

Last edited by MolaKule; 07/13/13 07:20 PM.

"You ... sadist," said Mr Cummings, "you try to make people think." Ezra Pound (1885-1972)
Re: Good white paper on gear oil specs GL-4, GL-5. [Re: MolaKule] #3064517 07/13/13 08:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
A
antiqueshell Offline OP
OP Offline
A
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,133
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Are you speaking to Manual Transmission oils exclusively?

Pennzoil makes a Manual Transmission Oil called Pennzoil Synchromesh.

I suspect the major oil companies don't see a large enough market for the the 14 cSt (75W90) type MTLs, which is why Amsoil and Redline fill that void with their niche product.

I disagree with your statement about them being expensive and overkill. A simple GL-4 gear oil (non-MTL) for general gearbox use does not have all of the components necessary for proper synchro performance in an MTL.


The Pennzoil Synchromesh is ONLY for some GM and Chrysler vehicles and it is NOT GL-4 spec even though Pennzoil "claims" it is safe for use with yellow metals in manual transmissions.

Many of us have European cars with manual gear boxes that specifically state that ONLY GL-4 spec 75w-90 be used.

This even applies to European cars in current production that are for sale in the USA.

Why doesn't Shell simply offer a Euro spec product that meets that spec for sale in the USA. It wouldn't cost them anything since the product is already offered in the rest of the world and they can distribute it through Pennzoil?

Last edited by antiqueshell; 07/13/13 08:45 PM.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™