The NEW middle class

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

So the workers are many times more productive, but instead of making more money they are making less. And even that's not good enough, got to outsource to even lower wage countries. That's progress

.

http://www.clevelandfed.org/Forefront/2012/summer/ff_2012_summer_13.cfm
Quote:
On average, compensation packages are 17 percent higher in the manufacturing industry compared with nonmanufacturing jobs. Manufacturing wages and salaries average $29.75 per hour compared with $27.47 for nonmanufacturing jobs, while benefits average $8.52 for a manufacturing job versus $5.37 for a nonmanufacturing job. And three out of four manufacturing workers have both retirement and medical care benefits, compared with only 55 percent of their private service-providing counterparts, according to the BLS. In total, the average compensation package for a manufacturing job is $38.27 per hour while a nonmanufacturing job averages $32.84 per hour.


Not that I automatically and necessarily believe the sources of your graphs, but I'll run with it.

If manufacturing on average pays more (and is worth more) than nonmanufacturing, then why would you be for outsourcing and getting rid of domestic manufacturing?

You argue both ends against the middle to try to support your point at the time.

You still didn't address that despite much higher worker productivity, wages have been stagnating and falling. But I'm sure you have a special interest group's graph that will claim different.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Trav
free Obama phone anyone?


Seriously? Do even know what the program is for? Do you know who first enacted it?

I'll give you a clue it wasn't Obama, it just happen to start right as he was elected.

That is one [censored] rumor that just needs to stop.


I know the background of the program and how it has ballooned to an over 41 percent fraud rate.
Instead of spending half an hour of my time posting the real facts and figures i suggest you google and come back with some facts other than to say its a B S rumor, start with the FCC report.

Let me get you started..
This was a program started by Reagan as a land line program to genuinely help the poor, under this guy it now includes smart phones with cameras.
While you are at it google Carlos slim and look at the profits he is making on the back of American taxpayers for helping the "poor".

http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/25/bill-quit-obama-phone-giveaway-gathers-steam/



I know all the facts and the cell phones were signed into law way before he took office. It was just a natural evolution to the fact land lines are becoming extinct. The cheapest phone you can buy these days is a smartphone in some way. The cell phone manufacturers stopped making the dumb phones because it is not profitable. Believe me I wanted to buy a dumb phone as a backup...no one would sell me one.

Anything with a camera/web/calender...etc is considered a smartphone these days so I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about that. I've seen the free phones people get and while I'll agree fraud is prevalent you show me one govt' program that doesn't have it. I blame the system not the one person in charge of making sure it doesn't collapse.

You might as well blame him for welfare too since he can't fix it, must be his fault.


So you don't have a land line but you do have an internet connection? Fact is land lines are available to almost every American household, the fact some choose not to have one should not entitle someone to a cell phone of any kind (unless land line is not available) on the taxpayer dime.
The whole point of the program was for the poor to be able to keep in touch with family, call medical services and look for work not text messages and photo shooting.

I hope this bill passes and does away with this program once and for all, the entitlement gang has ruined it for everyone.

As for the rest of your post about taxes. Its way to political but i will say this under the current administration the expansion of public assistance is greater than any other time in history.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/02/2012-index-of-dependence-on-government

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
wages have been stagnating and falling

There is a difference between total compensation and wages.

Quote:
then why would you be for outsourcing and getting rid of domestic manufacturing?


I don't ever recall being "for it". I am for an open market where people can make their own decisions.

My job happens to be in American manufacturing. I would like to see a much more friendly business environment so more people can be employed in productive jobs.

 

[mechanicx]

Wages, benefits, total compensation, whatever is stagnating and dropping.

But many people don't get to make their own decisions. I was happy with the price and quality of many US made products that were later outsourced. And I'm sure the workers' decision wasn't to be outsourced. There's companies that didn't want to outsource but were forced to or pressured to because their competitor did or because of their retailer.

At the time, many people didn't want NAFTA, it was shoved down their throat.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Wages, benefits, total compensation, whatever is stagnating and dropping.

So the BLS stats are wrong?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Wages, benefits, total compensation, whatever is stagnating and dropping.

So the BLS stats are wrong?

Not some much that but your presentation and interpretation of the stats is wrong. You'll post a graph or stat that would suggestion one thing, but claim it suggests the opposite.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Wages, benefits, total compensation, whatever is stagnating and dropping.

So the BLS stats are wrong?

The graph you posted shows that things appeared to stop increasing around 2007 and stagnated, then appear to start to dip back down after 2010. Which is in-line with the statement mechanicx made

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The low info voters will never believe the truth about their Savior.

Chicago style, baby!


Low info I am not...but thanks for generalizing be into that pool.


No one said anything to you. Or about you.

Take from it what you want to, the facts are that things are far worse than they were economically, corruption and such is rampant at a level never before seen, and it can no longer be blamed on others. Time for some old fashioned "take responsibility" and real meaningful "change".


I take from it you were personally implying I was. Now if you say I wasn't I will leave it at that. Face value it seemed as if you were.

That stopped when the govt' in general bought people out of their homes IMO. Responsibility stopped when the loans were approved.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: Trav
So you don't have a land line but you do have an internet connection? Fact is land lines are available to almost every American household, the fact some choose not to have one should not entitle someone to a cell phone of any kind (unless land line is not available) on the taxpayer dime.
The whole point of the program was for the poor to be able to keep in touch with family, call medical services and look for work not text messages and photo shooting.

I hope this bill passes and does away with this program once and for all, the entitlement gang has ruined it for everyone.

As for the rest of your post about taxes. Its way to political but i will say this under the current administration the expansion of public assistance is greater than any other time in history.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/02/2012-index-of-dependence-on-government


You can have your grievances with the program, that is your right and not to say I don't agree. You are still blaming the wrong person for it though. It was signed by Bush...he may have let it continue but Bush started it all. Cell phones evolved and whether you use pictures or txt msg they are there. The wireless part isn't even funded by tax dollars. It is funded by fees from the cell phone companies themselves. Don't want to fund it, don't support those companies.

Public assistance expanded only because of the economy which was on a downward spiral way before he entered office. People will abuse the system no matter what because they know they can. I see it everyday and so does my wife(healthcare), we pay for the numerous non-insured to have their children in the hospital she works at. Yet I spend a lot on healthcare every year for my family.

It all can be done better and maybe it will with the next term in office whoever that may be maybe it won't. Whatever the case that person will be chastised no matter what they do right or wrong like every president in history.

edit: I should also note that entitlement programs on the whole should be reevaluated, especially farm subsidys. That is another reason we are in the hole.

 

[EType]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell

And what does that say of the general population...I'm a US Citizen born and raised and this demonstrates to me that the population has begun to accept a form of capitalist slavery.
And unfortunately people are getting less intelligent over time.

(Note I am NO fan of communism either. )


And the affected people often vote for those that screw them.

Check out Herman Cain, the NRA (R=Restaurant), and minimum wage for restaurant workers.

He has been successful in keeping the minimum wage for restaurant workers in many states at the same level for 20 years. $2.13 an hour.

And restaurants employ 9% of America.

And they mostly sell food that contributes to health problems.

How many people are getting screwed here in the name of profit for a few?

If as a society we value things being cheap over quality, and we accept that when it comes to food, we can't complain when we get the bad results that that leads to.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
It is funded by fees from the cell phone companies themselves.


No it is not! It is funded by the paying customers with the USF (universal service fee)fee that appears on their monthly bill, its a rate payer rip off of mega proportions!
You say i shouldn't support these companies? ATT charges me and other normal rate payers USF, we have no choice, this month it was $5.87 on my bill.
You mean i should give up my phone if i don't want to pay the fee so you can have a freebie? I don't even want to tell you what i think of that!

This and most of these other bloated entitlement programs are rackets that need to come to a screeching halt yesterday.
Follow the money for Lifeline. Even the Huffington Post cant fluff this anymore.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/10/carlos-slim-obamaphones_n_1955929.html

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223


Seriously? Do even know what the program is for? Do you know who first enacted it?

I'll give you a clue it wasn't Obama, it just happen to start right as he was elected.

That is one [censored] rumor that just needs to stop.


I know the background of the program and how it has ballooned to an over 41 percent fraud rate.
Instead of spending half an hour of my time posting the real facts and figures i suggest you google and come back with some facts other than to say its a B S rumor, start with the FCC report.

Let me get you started..
This was a program started by Reagan as a land line program to genuinely help the poor, under this guy it now includes smart phones with cameras.
While you are at it google Carlos slim and look at the profits he is making on the back of American taxpayers for helping the "poor".

http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/25/bill-quit-obama-phone-giveaway-gathers-steam/



I know all the facts and the cell phones were signed into law way before he took office. It was just a natural evolution to the fact land lines are becoming extinct. The cheapest phone you can buy these days is a smartphone in some way. The cell phone manufacturers stopped making the dumb phones because it is not profitable. Believe me I wanted to buy a dumb phone as a backup...no one would sell me one.

Anything with a camera/web/calender...etc is considered a smartphone these days so I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about that. I've seen the free phones people get and while I'll agree fraud is prevalent you show me one govt' program that doesn't have it. I blame the system not the one person in charge of making sure it doesn't collapse.

You might as well blame him for welfare too since he can't fix it, must be his fault.


So you don't have a land line but you do have an internet connection? Fact is land lines are available to almost every American household, the fact some choose not to have one should not entitle someone to a cell phone of any kind (unless land line is not available) on the taxpayer dime.
The whole point of the program was for the poor to be able to keep in touch with family, call medical services and look for work not text messages and photo shooting.

I hope this bill passes and does away with this program once and for all, the entitlement gang has ruined it for everyone.

As for the rest of your post about taxes. Its way to political but i will say this under the current administration the expansion of public assistance is greater than any other time in history.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/02/2012-index-of-dependence-on-government


I have Internet service with no landline...this is pretty common now. My cell phone costs LESS than my landline did, and there are plans cheaper than mine.

 

[Trav]

Then why not give them VOIP? Some plans are way cheaper than any cell phone.
My point is the free ride has to come to a stop, taxpayers and rate payers cant handle the cost anymore.

 

[daves87rs]

Wow, actually surprised this thread is still going.....


Not sure I want the lifeline program cut, as i know a few old and poor folks who this really helps out. They should have just stuck with the basic phone.....


Now can we move past the phone part now???

 

[antiqueshell]

If you look at a broad range of stats from DoL, BLS, and others you will see THAT WHEN ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION AND THE DECREASING VALUE OF THE DOLLAR....typical wages for MOST Americans ARE FALLING OR STAGNANT, most are indeed falling, only the top 5% of the population are seeing any significant wage increases at all.

We are aiming to compete with China because out traitorous government is failing to protect the interests of We The People. With the reasonable use of tariffs and other protections....they also passed the ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL NAFTA, GATT, and WTO agreements that allow foreign bodies to make policy and regulations instead of the US Congress (Commerce and Trade).

 

[javacontour]

The idea of helping folks who need it is laudable.

The problem is (always) in the implementation.

Since the ones handing out the money are not handing out their own money, there is little incentive to police the program.

If help your neighbor programs actually required the recipients to go to those who are providing their own money and make the case, instead of going to a bureaucrat whose job depends on the program you would likely see less waste, fraud and abuse.

Once you have a big pipeline where the money goes to someplace like DC and is handed out by people other than the ones providing the bulk of the money, you'll have the sorts of fraud and abuse that bothers the typical tax payer.

Most folks have little problem with helping the truly needy and down on their luck.

They have a big problem with those who game the system, or are rewarded for bad choices, or simply are not expected to do any better.

Those folks are free to do as they wish. I simply don't want my taxes supporting the freely made bad choices of others or any gaming the system.

This is true from the little guy or billionaire bankers.

If the billionaires need help, let them call on their neighbors, the other billionaire bankers.

If someone in your community needs a phone, let them make the case to those who would actually step up and pay their bill and so on....

 

[antiqueshell]

Agreed about having local communities offering these types of low income offers for phones, and internet service. At least make it on the state level, but preferably it should be at the county or city town level.

I think there is way to much corruption now with any of the social services....

However just as much a problem with welfare for big corporations like military contractors....there must be more strict oversight.

 

[mechanicx]

There already is reduced billing maybe even nearly free landline phone service available for the elderly poor and disabled and I guess welfare mothers. I'm not sure why they would need a cell phone. It's probably really limited and crummy cell service anyway.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
And you are now "competing" with a couple of billion people who are willing to fight dirty and take what's yours...


fixed it for you

 

[Shannow]

You mean like flooding markets, then buying the traditional brand names for cents on the dollar, and replacing locally sourced product/produce with imported ?

Welcome to the club !!!