Max safe temp for synthetic oil while tracking car

[Sirbrillo]

I have a 2013 FRS I plan to track it a bit and I'm trying to determine if I need an oil cooler for the car. The car takes 0w-20 stock and oil temps hit 212ish in heavy traffic and 220 if I'm ragging on the car. In Houston heat, folks are seeing 260-270 at the track with no cooler.

I was planning to run amsoil 0w-20 and change it after an event. Can that oil handle 260-270 for a track weekend? Should I run a 0w-30? I'm not sure at what point a cooler is necessary as I know engines run hotter now and I'm not sure what amsoil can take before breaking down.

I've done some reading on flashpoints but I don't think that is the stat I should be concerned with. I tried searching on the forum for threads on temps but wasn't getting good results

 

[dparm]

I don't think 260 will be a problem. Plenty of cars nudge 300 without going into a "limp home" mode. Heck, the Mustang GT, a 400+hp 5.0L V8 is running 5w20 from the factory.

 

[Sirbrillo]

There seems to be some controversy on the FRS forums for the need for a cooler in terms of engine safety. Of course lower is better, and the engine appears to reduce power when oil temps go over 225, but if your not truly racing the car and change the oil after each weekend, I'm not sure the 700 cooler kit is worth the money. I know high temps reduce oil life, but that's why I'm planning to changie it after an event

at what threshold does a generic synthetic like Mobil 1 actually stop protecting the engine?

 

[racin4ds]

If you pay $700+ for an oil cooler you're crazy... you can get nice oil cooler setups for MUCH cheaper than that unless you have to have the fancy factory (overpriced) stuff...

 

[Sirbrillo]

I'm open to suggestions for a thermostatic oil cooler kit that is cheap, doing it right piecemeal came out to $500 once I ordered all the parts but that was name brand stuff

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Sirbrillo
I'm open to suggestions for a thermostatic oil cooler kit that is cheap, doing it right piecemeal came out to $500 once I ordered all the parts but that was name brand stuff


I have had many track events where I got 300 degree oil temps with excellent UOA's on M1 0W-40. You need to know the oil temp and the oil pressure to tell if you need a better grade of oil or a cooler or both.

 

[dparm]

Instead of switching to a thicker oil, consider a "stouter" formula in 0w20. Motul 300V and Red Line are available in 0w20, and both are streetable race oils.

300V 0w20 has HTHS = 2.7
Red Line 0w20 has HTHS = 2.9 (basically a light 30)

There's also Renewable Lube 0w20, which is a group V oil boasting HTHS of 2.9+. I'm sure it would do well on track.


I have used 300V in an Audi S4 (4.2L 40V V8, 340hp, and a very tight engine bay) that was out on the track a few times. My UOAs showed it withstood that punishment without breaking a sweat. My oil temps were well into the 260s and 270s.

 

[buster]

Mobil 1 is said to protect engines up to 500F.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Mobil_1_Heat_Protection.aspx

Mobil 1™ synthetic motor oil provides outstanding high-temperature protection and is proven to protect at engine temperatures up to 500°F. In fact, Mobil 1 synthetic oil provides superior performance versus our other full synthetic and conventional oils when tested for high-temperature deposit formation, as seen below.

 

[Sirbrillo]

How stout is amsoil vs redline and motul? The HTHS of their 0w20 is 2.8

 

[SteveSRT8]

It should be noted that way back in 05 I was at Homestead and commented on the high oil temps I had seen on my car to an SRT engineer.

He laughed and said that 300 degrees was nothing to good synthetic!

Sirbrillo, check out Amsoil Dominator racing oil for track days.

 

[Sirbrillo]

with the comments thus far I'm thinking ill hold off on the cooler for now and test the car at the track first. given what I'm reading, under what conditions would you want a oil cooler? It doesn't seem like HPDE events would ever push the oil beyond its limits. Are they just for true racing?

 

[SteveSRT8]

as noted earlier you must know both oil temp and oil pressure at the track to be certain.

Guesswork is not advisable at the track!

 

[Clevy]

I would absolutely install an oil cooler,and I am in my 4V.
To know whether temps as high as 300 are detrimental you would first need to know the oils film strength at those temps and then seat pressures to see it the chosen oil is adequate at elevated temps.
I think an oil cooler is a no brainer personally. Then you know for sure oil temps will be far less likely to get high enough to cause any issues.
I was always a thicker is better guy until I came to this site. I've learned a lot,so much in fact I'll fend off my urges to thicken up the PU I got and run it straight,gaining the benefits of less pumping losses and faster flowing oil.
I'm gonna be the black sheep here and suggest following through with the oil cooler idea,and once its installed find the 20 grade with the highest viscosity index and the most possible moly and put the pedal to the metal.
I do agree a real oil temp and oil pressure gauges are a great idea. You can derive a lot of info from them and use the data to fine tune the lubricant choice.
Just my opinion based on my plans being in a similar situation

 

[147_Grain]

Originally Posted By: Sirbrillo

I have a 2013 FRS I plan to track it a bit. ....
I was planning to run amsoil 0w-20 and change it after an event. Can that oil handle 260-270 for a track weekend? Should I run a 0w-30?


Amsoil's Signature Series 0W-20 and 0W-30 can easily handle the higher temperatures. The question should be, can my engine and turbo handle a thinner oil in high heat conditions?

While you're purchasing the Amsoil, why not consider their 0W-30 (which I've used for decades) to help protect the turbo? You can also buy the 0W-20 (keep receipts for warranty) and strengthen it / blend in a heavier oil.

To keep things simple, if it was my vehicle, I'd use Amsoil 0W-30 in the summer and 0W-20 in the winter.

I also agree with Clevy about an oil cooler.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Sirbrillo
I'm open to suggestions for a thermostatic oil cooler kit that is cheap, doing it right piecemeal came out to $500 once I ordered all the parts but that was name brand stuff


I would think that EVEN Mocal, or Setrab stacked plate based 'piecemeal' systems would run a little less than that!?

147; Unless Sirbrillo put an aftermarket turbo kit on his FRS, they are naturally aspirated Scoobie boxer four pots from the factory.

 

[147_Grain]

Ooops. Thought the Subaru 4-banger was a turbo version, but the principles discussed are the same.

Also, for the OP's education: A 30-weight oil at 250* - 260*F. will have the approximate viscosity of a 20-weight oil at 215* - 220*F. Temperature of the oil determines the viscosity.

 

[smbstyle]

I've got a BRZ, and at Sebring two weekends ago, in close to 90* ambient temps, I read oil temps staying steady at mid 290s and touched 300*f at one point, and the next day it was a tad cooler and temps stayed at high 280s and low 290s. I was reading oil temps from the stock oil temp sensor, wherever that is mounted, from the ScangaugeII OBDII reader. However, water temps didn't go over 217, and pretty much stayed right around 210-212*f. I ran the car for 30 minute sessions 4 times each day for two days.

I was running GC 0w30 and the OEM Subaru filter. car is stock except for Hawk pads. A lot of people on the BRZ/FRS forums act as if touching 300*f oil temps on track the oil will turn to dust and the engine will explode. I don't know where people are getting the arbitrary number of "anything over 270* is dangerous".

I'd love to hear more on this topic, as to what happens to new, quality synthetic oils at these high temps for short periods of time.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Sirbrillo
There seems to be some controversy on the FRS forums for the need for a cooler in terms of engine safety. Of course lower is better, and the engine appears to reduce power when oil temps go over 225, but if your not truly racing the car and change the oil after each weekend, I'm not sure the 700 cooler kit is worth the money. I know high temps reduce oil life, but that's why I'm planning to changie it after an event

at what threshold does a generic synthetic like Mobil 1 actually stop protecting the engine?

The important observation here is that it appears the Toyota safeties are kicking in at oil temp's of over 225F.
Consequently the solution is to install a thermostatically controlled oil cooler; a coolant/oil heat exchanger would be even better.
In the meantime I'd recommend using the light TGMO 0W-20 or even the Mazda moly 0W-20. Running a heavier oil is counter-productive
since heavier oil runs hotter which will trigger the power robbing engine management safety systems all that much sooner.

 

[Nederlander75]

Interestingly in temps above 90F my RX8 runs about 6-10 deg F cooler oil and water temps 50wt to 20wt.

 

[quarterliter]

Go redline 3 quarts 5w20 2 quarts 20wt racing oil. Should be good for a 2000 mile OCI. Or just go all race oil if you plan on changing it every weekend. I like red line stuff a lot of good info on the site and excellent customer service. I tried contacting motul once...never ever got straight answers just b/s.