Antiseize - Copper vs Nickle

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This is what we did, in a previous life.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Other areas we use hydraulic jacks to apply the clamp load, then snug the nut down and remove the jack.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
My question arises when youre dealing with older, dirtier stuff where the threads may have some surface rust, coatings may not be as good as original, etc. The added surface roughness will make the torque higher with a lower clamping force. In that situation, the added torque may be beneficial from the AS.

Just speculating...

I like the idea of torquing dry, marking the alignment, putting the AS on and then torquing back to that point. ..........


You are assuming that torqueing the dry fastener results in the correct clamping force, and IMO that is not a safe assumption to make. From what I have read, only 10% to 25% of the torque goes towards clamping force, the rest goes towards overcoming friction.

The fundamental problem is that a simple torque measurement does not result in an accurate or consistent clamping force, even in a laboratory situation. Use of an AS can improve the consistency of the resulting clamp force, but does not improve the accuracy.

".......... Bench-top torque-tension testing shows approximately 10% variations within samples even when all fasteners and bearing materials are the same. According to both short and longform equations, there should be no variation at all. Friction coefficients seem to vary from sample to sample....."

http://machinedesign.com/article/underst...lationship-0818
 
Great thread! I found it looking for posts by Kesta's to see if he's still around from an old post he made...I'm going to PM you soon Kesta for your advice regarding an old thread.

Anyway, I've always been curious about the issues of anti-seize and conductivity to better complete the ground path of plugs and 02 sensors since they get their ground through the threads but not all 02 sensors. I think just the 1, 2, 3 wires but the others may have a dedicated wire for ground path. But plugs and 02 sensors need a very good ground to function properly.

So I once called Permatex and asked them about conductivity tests between the regular graphite and copper anti-seize. I can't find my notes, but maybe it was Loc-Tite I called and e-mail from Permatex. They told me they didn't have formal published test results, but said the copper anti-seize was around 800 ohms vs. like around thousands???? of ohms in conductivity for the silver colored anti-seize.

Anyone know how to test it? I'm sure there must be a controlled test procedure of a certain measured volume's conductivity.

I did find an e-mail to their main tech guy Rene but that was not the person who I spoke to, so it may have been someone at Loc-Tite that make similar anti-seizes.

Here's what Rene the main tech guy at Permatex said:

Many Thanks for your interest in Permatex products
This product( P/N 80078 - Silver Anti-Seize- color only ) grade with
Temp max. ( 1600 F ) And the Copper Anti-seize 31163 (1800 F) Temp max.

...Have been used in this function ...since they were made... more than
20 years ago ...
Permatex dose not have any ...data to specify conductivity ...
measurements .. ...The Silver is color only .. and would be very little
in continuity where the Copper is copper base .. with a more conductive
chemistry...

If you have further questions feel free to call Tech. Service at
toll-free @ 877.376-2839).... Thanks again , RAP : (03/ 08/10)

So I cleaned out the old silver/graphite anti-seize with a few tooth brushes soaked with carb cleaner (tooth brushes dissolve work quickly) and used some copper anti-seize.

By the way....I found this video below a few years ago and have passed it around.....anyone putting anti-seize on any spark plug should watch this WELLS video and their senior tech engineers regarding the over-use of any anti-seize on plug threads which can seep back into the plug tip and cause mis-fires........very interesting........use anti-seize sparingly on plug threads...from what they say, probably only the size of a grain of rice and not on the last few threads of the plug....
confused2.gif
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Good video....see 7:40 for comments of why the plug was misfiring due to anti-seize:

Wells TECH VIDEO

I this engineers description of "Big Goopy Mess"!
lol.gif



Hope this helps a little,

Regards,
Chris
 
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I have been using the silver/grey tube of permatex anti seize on everything. Is this a multi-use product or should I get more specific with my anti seize?

For example, about to use it on NGk plugs into iron engine head. Is that ok?
 
If yo want ot avoid headache from glavanics corosion use ceramics paste. very auto parts shop offer such paste. Eve more some of them sell it in form of spray.
Personaly I´m not lube freak and I still use coper paste from 15 years ago. we had only coper paste 30 years ago and everithing was fine.
 
Only thing I can say is to just consider the what the Wells Video I posted above has to say on Anti-Seize on spark plugs and use very little!

I had found my notes from my conversation with a tech guy at "Henkel" who makes Loctite. He said they did some non-published conductivity testing of their different anti-seize compounds.

Spark plugs need a very good ground path to the head and is often recommended to run a 4awg ground wire from each head to the body or back to the negative post for ultimate ignition and plug firing performance.

Graphite #50 Anti-seize has the highest conductivity at 54 ohms. Low Temp rating not for high temps........

Copper Stick
Copper Tube 658 ohms 1800 F.

Conventional Silver (Aluminum/Graphite/Calcium Oxide) 9000 ohms 1600 F.

HERE is their search page for "Anti-Seize" which shows different types and quantities.

For now, I've switched to Permatex Copper which I suppose has the same properties as the Loctite brand, but will probably buy the Loctite Copper in the Stick, tube or can if I see it or the next time I go to Grainger Industrial Supply who I know has it.

I hope this helps.....

Regards,
Chris
 
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I was editing, and got timed out so here it is again:


Only thing I can say is to just consider the what the Wells Video I posted above has to say about Anti-Seize on spark plugs and use very little but you must use an Anti-Seize with conductive properties on spark plugs or you will isolate the ground path (through the plugs thread into the head) and run into ignition problems of a misfiring plug or not firing at all!

I had found my notes from my conversation with a tech guy at "Henkel" who makes Loctite from when I specifically inquired about conductivity of different Anti-Seize compounds and which ones where the lowest. He said they did in fact do some non-published conductivity testing of their different anti-seize compounds. I also asked the same to Permatex, but they did not have any testing data.

Spark plugs need a very good ground path to and through the head and is often recommended to run a 4awg ground wire from each head to the body or back to the negative battery post for the best ground path to get ultimate ignition and plug firing performance so it receives the full energy of the coil.

Graphite #50 Anti-seize has the highest conductivity at 54 ohms. Low Temp rating not for high temps........

Copper Stick
Copper Tube 658 ohms 1800 F. Best Anti-Seize recommended for plugs.

Conventional Silver (Aluminum/Graphite/Calcium Oxide) 9000 ohms 1600 F.


For now, I've switched to Permatex Copper which I suppose has the same properties as the Loctite brand, but will probably buy the Loctite Copper in the Stick, tube or small can if I see it at the parts store or the next time I go to Grainger Industrial Supply who I know has it.

I hope this helps.....

Regards,
Chris
 
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Just found this.

Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant
A highly refined blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants. Use during assembly to prevent galling, corrosion and seizing due to weathering or chemicals. Anti-Seize assures easier disassembly. Temperature range: -60°F to 1600°F (-51°C to 871°C). Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant – ideal for marine use. Non-aerosol version meets Mil Spec #907E. Aerosol - Level 3 *NFPA Fire Code 30B

Suggested Applications: For easy removal of spark plugs, cylinder head and exhaust head bolts; apply to anchor pins on brake assemblies, u-bolts and spring bolts, hinges, gears, chain, sprockets and rollers
 
And this.

Permatex® Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant
A premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. Temperature range: -30°F to 1800°F (-34°C to 982°C). Provides good electrical conductivity. Meets Mil Spec #907E.

Suggested Applications: Spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, and fuel filter fittings

Why the specification of aluminum? I thought copper was better for iron heads? This is from the permatex site.
 
You know what copper anti-seize is really good for?
Take a smidge of it, take a black-oxide impact socket (one of the old-school sockets with the hard-to-read sizes punched/recessed into the side) and rub the copper anti-seize into the numbers. Voila, copper-numbered impact sockets. Much easier to read the numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Just don't use ANY anti-seize on NGK spark plugs.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf



That was some extreme torque to snap that plug in the photo, and probably torqued in a cast iron head in order to completely snap it. I've over torqued Delco plugs trying to index them, the ones they remark about having a black shell in the article, and I actually stretched the shell to the point the plug was clicking loudly on each stroke, but I've never broke a plug like that! Seems like NGK is making an exaggerated example. In this instance, I wonder if NGK's shell is so much more thinner or less quality metal.
smirk.gif


I have a feeling that the black plugs are high carbon steel vs. a milder steel that has a chrome plating.
 
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Even the WELL's Video I posted on the previous pg. warns about the "overuse" of anti-seize on plugs because of the possibility of stripping the threads in an aluminum head along with migration of too much anti-seize causing the plug to misfire but they didn't mention snapping a plug like the point NGK is trying to make.

For me, I'd consider what NGK is saying along with WELL's, and just use a very small amount of copper anti-seize (about the size of 2 grains of rice on opposing sides of the plugs thread) and be aware of torque rating if the application requires it.

My goal is to increase electrical conductivity for the ground side of the ignition through the plugs to the heads along with anti-seize benefits.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Just don't use ANY anti-seize on NGK spark plugs.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/tb-0630111antisieze.pdf


Thats funny, cause all the know-it-all Yahoos on this site keep telling eveyone to use anti-seize on all plugs..
33.gif

Those of us Yahoo's who own torque wrenches just make a downward adjustment of 15% or so. I have only been doing that for 25 years or so. Duh.
 
LOL. What about the aviation mechanic Yahoos?

The Champion aviation spark plug page states their plugs are coated to resist thread corrosion problems.

Yet, Champion markets an aviation antisieze for spark plugs only:
antiseize.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: cadchris

That was some extreme torque to snap that plug in the photo, and probably torqued in a cast iron head in order to completely snap it. I've over torqued Delco plugs trying to index them, the ones they remark about having a black shell in the article, and I actually stretched the shell to the point the plug was clicking loudly on each stroke, but I've never broke a plug like that!


32.gif
but wouldn't the benefits of indexing be negated/offset by opening up the gap as the side electrode was moved away from the centre ?
 
"Shannow", I don't understand your statement. Are you talking about me over-torqueing the plug and stretching the shell being "off topic"?

I did intentionally over-torque the plug in a cast iron head to see how close I could get to indexing the ground electrode to face opposite of the intake valve/quench area instead of using indexing washers or another set of plugs with the threads that are positioned differently from plug to plug. But, yes, I did use copper anti-seize but was only making a point regarding the NGK TSB and the results of either breaking the shell or stretching the shell from what happened to me and what was mentioned in the WELLS Video.....
thumbsup2.gif
 
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