Once you run synthetic-go back to conventional?

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
As you're well aware, I'm not a huge fan of 10w-40, I prefer 5w-30 over 10w-30, and I'm not going to be using 15w-40 in the thing, either.

You wouldn't happen to know the HTHS of either the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30, would you? They're not on the data sheets, but I'm guessing probably around 4.1 and 3.5 respectively, but I'm far from sure.

Nonetheless, I have no complaints about the Delvac 1 5w-40 right now. It's a formidable true synthetic, I have a fair amount in stock, and it should be a great choice for extended drains; plus, that engine creates more heat than anything else I've experienced before.

That's an excellent choice!
These HTHSs sound about right.
As you know, the higher the viscosity index, the higher the Noack!
What about NOACK volatility % of this oil ?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Garak
As you're well aware, I'm not a huge fan of 10w-40, I prefer 5w-30 over 10w-30, and I'm not going to be using 15w-40 in the thing, either.

You wouldn't happen to know the HTHS of either the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30, would you? They're not on the data sheets, but I'm guessing probably around 4.1 and 3.5 respectively, but I'm far from sure.

Nonetheless, I have no complaints about the Delvac 1 5w-40 right now. It's a formidable true synthetic, I have a fair amount in stock, and it should be a great choice for extended drains; plus, that engine creates more heat than anything else I've experienced before.

That's an excellent choice!
These HTHSs sound about right.
As you know, the higher the viscosity index, the higher the Noack!
What about NOACK volatility % of this oil ?

You're not familiar with these oils.
Only the Delvac 0W-30 and 0W-40 are PAO based.
NOACK is under 9% and therefore a non issue.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Garak, I didn't notice this before but that's one heavy oil you're running in the G37.

Using a synthetic is against my religion already. Now you want me to mix oil? Are you trying to kill me?

I could have had heavier and conventional and just asked for the 15w-40 back from my buddy. Really, though, the Delvac 1 was just orphaned from my stash, so I tossed it in the G. Yeah, it's pretty heavy, but I don't think it's seriously out of line, given the rather high oil temperatures of the engine (significantly higher than that of the Audi 200 Turbo).

As I use the Delvac 1, I'm going to see what I can do to push out these OCIs, if I can resolve to be brave enough (and do some UOAs, of course). The lube choice of Delvac 1 and extended intervals work for Doug; I'll see if it will work for me.

If I'm thinking things are too heavy, I'm not afraid to try the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30. Imperial Oil's regular pricing on synthetics rivals Walmart's regular prices on conventional.

If I chicken out in the end, I won't be running to the Toyota dealership to do a blend, either. I'd be too freaked out and have to return to my PYB. Nonetheless, before that would happen, we'd have to restore balance to the oil universe. I'd have to put in a good word with an Ontario Imperial Oil distributor for Overkill so he can get his M1 0w-40 at a more sensible price, and I'll have to introduce myself to the SOPUS distributor here. The last time I dealt with one of them was long before Quaker State and Pennzoil joined in.

I will concede that choosing an oil is a religious experience for some.
Yes if you could bring yourself to consider the Delvac Elite 222 0W-30, (a true PAO syn') it would be a much more suitable choice.
Or even better, PC Duron 0W-30, it's lighter still (HTHSV 3.33cP) and is only a GP III syn'?

I appreciate the bottom line is price (that's the true religion), but running these heavy dino's is IMO false economy....think about it.


Hey Garak. Have you ever looked into the Co-op branded oils. They are bottled by esso so Mobil basically.
The one oil they sell that I've been really considering the the syn 0w-40. It has an insane pour point of -67 or something and its an sm rated hdeo. I did some research and its strikingly similar to the devlac-222 0w-30 and its got PAO stamped on the top corner of the label. I've found it on co-op shelves for 24 bucks a gallon locally and I'm sure a guy could buy 5 gallon pails of the stuff and get an even larger cut as far as cost is concerned.
I brought this oil to Caterham's attention because I thought it might be one of those sleeper oils,a diamond in the rough so to speak,and the price puts it into near rollback Walmart prices for synthetic oils and cheaper than conventional jugs at full price however the co-op oil is only a gallon vs the 5 quarts found in the rollback jugs.
Check it out. The Co-op website has limited info on the oil itself and you will likely be able to translate what all the numbers mean,which in all honesty would help me figure out if its a good value for the price vs Walmart.
And I really like the idea of 5 gallon pails. If I could get it in the 80-90 dollar range for 5 gallons that puts it in to the good value column for me.
And it advertises very high pao content. Like more than we as bitoger s may feel comfortable with due to the group 4 base additive solubility issue. Or is that also been solved?
Maybe I'll pm molakule and ask for his thoughts on it. At 6 bucks a litre its half the price of M1 and that pour point just amazes me. Its hard for me to fathom a 40 grade oil to be anything more than a solid block at temps that cold,so our -40 temps would nothing for that oil so cold starts would be a complete non issue.
And my forklift would pull way less amps at start up in winter,as well as less wear on the started mechanism in general,and just how much faster that oil will flow on those -40 morning starts makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I'll pm Molekule and ask what he thinks of it based on the limited info posted by co-op.
I'll see if I can glean any insight from him.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Garak
You wouldn't happen to know the HTHS of either the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 or the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30, would you? They're not on the data sheets, but I'm guessing probably around 4.1 and 3.5 respectively, but I'm far from sure.

These HTHSs sound about right.
As you know, the higher the viscosity index, the higher the Noack!
What about NOACK volatility % of this oil ?

You're not familiar with these oils.
Only the Delvac 0W-30 and 0W-40 are PAO based.
NOACK is under 9% and therefore a non issue.

Is this 9% for Delvac 5w-40 or is it much higher ?
So is the Delvac 5W-40 not a true synthetic PAO based oil ???

 

[Durango]

Originally Posted By: Hethaerto
Where in the world did this thinking come from, and why does it persist?

Syn-conv blends have been around a long time. Do rednecks not recognize this?


Hethaerto,

Generaly speaking I'd never go back cuz now a days I can't get the time to have my car/truck serviced. I need to stretch out the distance longer according to the book. I'm now too busy trying to keep a job and put food on the table. I'm now practically working weekends in addition to my Monday through Friday.

Durango

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Garak, I didn't notice this before but that's one heavy oil you're running in the G37.

Using a synthetic is against my religion already. Now you want me to mix oil? Are you trying to kill me?

I could have had heavier and conventional and just asked for the 15w-40 back from my buddy. Really, though, the Delvac 1 was just orphaned from my stash, so I tossed it in the G. Yeah, it's pretty heavy, but I don't think it's seriously out of line, given the rather high oil temperatures of the engine (significantly higher than that of the Audi 200 Turbo).

As I use the Delvac 1, I'm going to see what I can do to push out these OCIs, if I can resolve to be brave enough (and do some UOAs, of course). The lube choice of Delvac 1 and extended intervals work for Doug; I'll see if it will work for me.

If I'm thinking things are too heavy, I'm not afraid to try the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30. Imperial Oil's regular pricing on synthetics rivals Walmart's regular prices on conventional.

If I chicken out in the end, I won't be running to the Toyota dealership to do a blend, either. I'd be too freaked out and have to return to my PYB. Nonetheless, before that would happen, we'd have to restore balance to the oil universe. I'd have to put in a good word with an Ontario Imperial Oil distributor for Overkill so he can get his M1 0w-40 at a more sensible price, and I'll have to introduce myself to the SOPUS distributor here. The last time I dealt with one of them was long before Quaker State and Pennzoil joined in.

I will concede that choosing an oil is a religious experience for some.
Yes if you could bring yourself to consider the Delvac Elite 222 0W-30, (a true PAO syn') it would be a much more suitable choice.
Or even better, PC Duron 0W-30, it's lighter still (HTHSV 3.33cP) and is only a GP III syn'?

I appreciate the bottom line is price (that's the true religion), but running these heavy dino's is IMO false economy....think about it.


Hey Garak. Have you ever looked into the Co-op branded oils. They are bottled by esso so Mobil basically.
The one oil they sell that I've been really considering the the syn 0w-40. It has an insane pour point of -67 or something and its an sm rated hdeo. I did some research and its strikingly similar to the devlac-222 0w-30 and its got PAO stamped on the top corner of the label. I've found it on co-op shelves for 24 bucks a gallon locally and I'm sure a guy could buy 5 gallon pails of the stuff and get an even larger cut as far as cost is concerned.
I brought this oil to Caterham's attention because I thought it might be one of those sleeper oils,a diamond in the rough so to speak,and the price puts it into near rollback Walmart prices for synthetic oils and cheaper than conventional jugs at full price however the co-op oil is only a gallon vs the 5 quarts found in the rollback jugs.
Check it out. The Co-op website has limited info on the oil itself and you will likely be able to translate what all the numbers mean,which in all honesty would help me figure out if its a good value for the price vs Walmart.
And I really like the idea of 5 gallon pails. If I could get it in the 80-90 dollar range for 5 gallons that puts it in to the good value column for me.
And it advertises very high pao content. Like more than we as bitoger s may feel comfortable with due to the group 4 base additive solubility issue. Or is that also been solved?
Maybe I'll pm molakule and ask for his thoughts on it. At 6 bucks a litre its half the price of M1 and that pour point just amazes me. Its hard for me to fathom a 40 grade oil to be anything more than a solid block at temps that cold,so our -40 temps would nothing for that oil so cold starts would be a complete non issue.
And my forklift would pull way less amps at start up in winter,as well as less wear on the started mechanism in general,and just how much faster that oil will flow on those -40 morning starts makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I'll pm Molekule and ask what he thinks of it based on the limited info posted by co-op.
I'll see if I can glean any insight from him.

Clevy, here's the PDS on the CO-OP 0W-40:
http://www.rrcoop.com/prod_dmo_gold_sl.html

The PP is "only" -57C and no MRV, CCS or HTHSV spec's are provided. The ZDDP is very low for a diesel oil.
But a VI of only 150 for a 0W-40 is pathetic.
Sorry but I'd pass on this oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Now regarding Delvac 1 5W-40; with a VI of only 156 it's not much better than a dino 15W-40. I'll pass.

I would agree its VI is unimpressive, particularly in comparison to the Delvac 1 0w-40 or the Elite 222 0w-30. But, it does have a few other things going for it, notably a significantly higher TBN, which may be of value in an extended drain. The 5w-40 does have significantly more certifications, for whatever that's worth.

As for the price of Delvac 1 0w-40, I was being quoted the same price as the Delvac 1 5w-40. When I did the comparison call a month ago or whatever it was, it was about $6.50 a litre. Finding M1 0w-40 for that up here is a little difficult, on sale or not.

Also, I'm pretty certain the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is also PAO based. Among other things, its pour point i s significantly better than it "should be," particularly in comparison to the 0w-40 and 0w-30, beating both on that count.

@fpracha: The NOACK on the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 isn't published. It should be well within the limits set by the various ACEA and manufacturer specifications it meets, but I'm not positive on those limits off the top of my head.

@Clevy: I've looked at the Coop oils, too. One can usually find the data sheets. It just takes a bit of looking since their site is a nightmare. Some of their oils have rather dated specs, and I wouldn't be interested in them for my G. There were some HDEOs, however, that did have plenty of zinc and the like and might be a good alternative for the F-150. The Coop stuff might be a tiny bit cheaper than the stuff at Imperial Oil, but the difference isn't huge.

@CATERHAM: That zinc level on the Coop 0w-40 is low, isn't it? It's low enough that it could almost be a typo.

 

[CATERHAM]

Garak, before Mobil rebranded XD-3, the only PAO Esso oils were the 0W-30 and 0W-40.

If I could get Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 for $6.50/L I'd kick M1 to the curb!
The last time I checked from NOCO, my Imperial Oil depot, it was $110.16/12L case, or $9.17L; they will only sell me case. M1 SM 0W-40 is as low as $8.30/L on sale at Cdn Tire here which is not bad unless you make a cross border run to pick up the SN oil for $22.59/5qt jug.

The CO-OP oil Zn level could be a mistake.
I checked out CO-OP a couple of years ago because they falsely reported their VI at over 200! Of course that turned out to be a
mistake which they eventually corrected.
The company is unreliable; I wouldn't bother with them.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Garak, before Mobil rebranded XD-3, the only PAO Esso oils were the 0W-30 and 0W-40.

I'm simply going by specs and an educated guess. I would wager some significant PAO or PAO/ester content in the 5w-40. Pour point (and even VI) are in line with what I would expect in a 5w-40 with a significant PAO content.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If I could get Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 for $6.50/L I'd kick M1 to the curb!

Check with them again. The prices I was quoted were for the 4x4L packs. I'm sure 16 litres of the stuff wouldn't be too much for you.

As for the Coop, that's one thing about them. Then again, all the oil companies have some bizarre things on their sheets. Coop does have a rather wide mix of modern and legacy lubes.

And that goes to the overall point of base stocks. In some ways, I'm a purist when it goes to the definition of "synthetic" but that has limits. After all, compare an SJ rated PAO oil to an SN rated Group III with the appropriate specifications.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Garak, I didn't notice this before but that's one heavy oil you're running in the G37.

By the way, I should make my brother run that in his Prius. He doesn't know anything about oil, so I could probably talk him into it.

I'm fairly certain he goes to Jiffy Lube or something similar. When I say he doesn't know anything about oil, I mean it. I don't think he could change the oil if you held a gun to his head.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Hethaerto
Where in the world did this thinking come from, and why does it persist?

Syn-conv blends have been around a long time. Do rednecks not recognize this?


Hard to search on keywords when you spell like that!


Thank you! And the reason why the subject is changed.

Bill

 

[GenSan]

It has to do with different lubricant chemistry and their effect on elastomer sealing/swelling/oxidizing and factor in cold/hot cycles. You want to avoid a lubricant that could possibly cause your gaskets/"o"rings/seals to become too brittle or swell too much. You want the lubricant to maintain the elastomers original properties to avoid leaks.

If you want to get technical about it here you go: LINK 1 LINK 2.

Even some self-proclaimed Rednecks know this.

 

[Hethaerto]

The problem is that so many people tell other people this without having a clue as to why.

 

[Kestas]

To add to discussion, I asked the seal engineers if they ever test their seals in synthetic oil. They said no, they only test in the fluid specified by the manufacturer. This was for transmission application.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Garak, I didn't notice this before but that's one heavy oil you're running in the G37.

By the way, I should make my brother run that in his Prius. He doesn't know anything about oil, so I could probably talk him into it.

I'm fairly certain he goes to Jiffy Lube or something similar. When I say he doesn't know anything about oil, I mean it. I don't think he could change the oil if you held a gun to his head.

JL in my area uses PP 0W-20 but an oil change is 90 bucks.
It's only $52 bucks at the Toyota dealer and that's using the superior TGMO.
Just make sure he gets his oil changed by Toyota or as a second option by a Honda dealer if it's closer. Saving money is usually a good motivator to over-come possible in convenience.

BTW, I checked with my local Imperial Oil depot on current prices and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 is $129.28 for a 4x4 16L case. That works out to $8.08/L but their is no way I would buy that much and I prefer single litre bottles which they don't offer.
Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30 is $8.06/L on a 12L case.
But the best deal is M1 0W-40 for $44.58/6L case or $7.43/L; that's cheaper than the best sale price at Cdn Tire.

BTW, just to give you an idea of how heavy Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 is.
If you added 25% TGMO it would still be heavier than M1 0W-40 with a VI of only 170 and your Phos level would still be over 1,000 ppm. And to justify even using M1 0W-40 in a G37 requires some serious track use.
Yes the G37 has a reputation for running hot, but not hotter than normal for regular street use or what the specified light 5W-30 syn can't handle with ease.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
JL in my area uses PP 0W-20 but an oil change is 90 bucks.

It's possible he goes to the dealer, but the dealers do offer some ridiculously cheap oil changes. I'm not sure he'd spring for the appropriate oil, either.

In any case, if I recall correctly, they are convenient and don't require appointments.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
BTW, I checked with my local Imperial Oil depot on current prices and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 is $129.28 for a 4x4 16L case. That works out to $8.08/L but their is no way I would buy that much and I prefer single litre bottles which they don't offer.

Just run it in straight in everything. If you try that, I might try a blend.

Did you happen to ask if they have the Delvac Elite 222 0w-30 in a 4x4?

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes the G37 has a reputation for running hot, but not hotter than normal for regular street use or what the specified light 5W-30 syn can't handle with ease.

My point with bringing up the temperatures wasn't that such temperatures require a 40 grade synthetic. I was just pointing out the difference in comparison to, say, my old Audi 200 Turbo. It called for a 40 grade for a rather wide variety of temperatures, yet its sump temperature didn't come close to that reported in the 3.7L. Basically, the sump temperatures will thin the 5w-40 out more in the G37 than they did in the Audi - in other words, I'm not worried that it's too thick for use.

With respect to the oil's VI, I'm not terribly worried either, since the car does not see short trips, nor do I drive it hard when cold. Of course, it all goes back to my original lubricant choices in this vehicle. I was using the specified lube in conventional. I was considering using the free PC synthetic when out of PYB (and will go for it when I'm out of Delvac 1). I'm just not terribly worried about the oil being thicker than the specification (here in North America at least). It might cost me a tiny bit in fuel economy and power, but it's not the end of the world. If I were that worried, I'd get a different car. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to measure the difference in fuel economy. I keep decent fuel records, but such things are hard to measure anyhow, and when the switch to summer fuel coincided with the switch to Delvac 1, any idea of tracking that is shot for sure. And I'm not going to throw it out or let it languish on my shelf indefinitely, either.

I don't tend to use VI as a purchasing point quite like you do. That being said, I would use a very low VI as a reason to NOT buy an oil. I looked at the PDS for that Coop 0w-40 PAO oil some months ago while seeing what they might have available in a dino HDEO for the old truck. I thought that the 0w-40 was interesting, until I saw the VI. Believe it or not, CATERHAM, when I saw that low of a VI, that was the factor that made me pass and flip to the next sheet. A VI that low on a 0w-40 PAO is rather bizarre.

 

[mkosem]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
To add to discussion, I asked the seal engineers if they ever test their seals in synthetic oil. They said no, they only test in the fluid specified by the manufacturer. This was for transmission application.


I've not owned a car in at least 10 years that doesn't spec synthetic fluids for its engine and transmission. I find it hard to believe that an engineer working on seals for transmissions wouldn't at least occasionally come across a factory spec for a synthetic fluid.

--Matt

 

[Hethaerto]

I guess the best approach is to test with the very worst example. If it's good with the worst.......

 

[stockrex]

wow, this thread went somewhere,
for what it is worth, I will share my real life example of using dino > syn > whatever on sale
I know, I know, I am not any oil guru, don't own any exotic cars or animals, just a dad who misses his kids and going through some tough times.

Vehicle: 2000 honda v6 accord
miles: 218k
Hx: 0-36k Dino > 36k-100k M1 > 100k-200k dino/mix
Never leaked a drop, the diaper head mechanic stripped the drain bolt at 180k and we had to get is rethreaded.

pls don't have a coronary: on my dmax, I went from dino to M1 and now to delvac, going to m1 in winter again.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes the G37 has a reputation for running hot, but not hotter than normal for regular street use or what the specified light 5W-30 syn can't handle with ease.
My point with bringing up the temperatures wasn't that such temperatures require a 40 grade synthetic. I was just pointing out the difference in comparison to, say, my old Audi 200 Turbo. It called for a 40 grade for a rather wide variety of temperatures, yet its sump temperature didn't come close to that reported in the 3.7L. Basically, the sump temperatures will thin the 5w-40 out more in the G37 than they did in the Audi - in other words, I'm not worried that it's too thick for use.

I don't tend to use VI as a purchasing point quite like you do. That being said, I would use a very low VI as a reason to NOT buy an oil. I looked at the PDS for that Coop 0w-40 PAO oil some months ago while seeing what they might have available in a dino HDEO for the old truck. I thought that the 0w-40 was interesting, until I saw the VI. Believe it or not, CATERHAM, when I saw that low of a VI, that was the factor that made me pass and flip to the next sheet. A VI that low on a 0w-40 PAO is rather bizarre.

These are important points you make!

Do you have any set criteria for a desired VI range when selecting a 0W-20 versus a 5W-20 (or a 0W-30 versus a 5W-30) oil ?

Are you inclined to prefer the PAO based oils over Grp III , when the PAO has a lower VI than the Grp III ?

If going for extended drain intervals will your choice be more towards a moderate-to-high VI oil (VI in 160 to 175 range) over an oil that is extreme high VI (in >190 range) ?