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Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? #2990606 05/01/13 05:18 PM
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trooper001 Offline OP
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This has been on my mind for a while, and in the spirit of picking some brains (this is BITOG after all), I had an inquiry. I've seen Kreen being recommended for it's cleaning abilities and with good posted results. Also, due to it's nature, I can't get it here in California. Part of that deals with it being a "hazardous" chemical. Now, Berryman's Chemtool B12 is also quite a hazardous chemical, but people shy away from recommending it as a crankcase cleaner. Is Chemtool that much more potent or dangerous? Kreen has been used to flush out a vehicle for (for example) a thousand miles, but Chemtool can't be used for that same task. At most, from what I've read, a 15 minute flush without load. So what exactly separates and makes it okay to use Kreen instead of Chemtool?

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2990622 05/01/13 05:32 PM
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SteveSRT8 Offline
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I have used kreen many times with great results.

I have never used B12 in my oil. Per this site it is somewhat hazardous in the oil if not dosed very exactly!


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2990700 05/01/13 07:16 PM
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eagle23 Offline
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re Chemtool, cutting petroleum-based detritus is great but does it provide enough lubricity in motor oil while doing so in a running engine, even though less "hazardous" chemically per EPA?

I haven't seen anything but I do wonder since they no longer recommend it for that use.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2991238 05/02/13 10:48 AM
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KCJeep Offline
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I am interested in this as well. I have heard of it being used as a "flush" at oil change and found a few positive comments on the net, but I've never seen anything about running it like Kreen. My understanding is they used to even recommend it for this purpose but stopped.


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2991338 05/02/13 12:26 PM
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trooper001 Offline OP
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I'm aware that it used to be okay to run it on the crankcase, but they (Berryman) opted to remove the directions from their cans. Quite frankly, if Kreen can be used, so can Chemtool. But that's my unscientific opinion on online testimonials all accross the internet and some word of mouth from older shade-tree mechanics I've talked to. I believe damage comes from misuse of any product and perhaps that is why Chemtool got a bad reputation when user error was present and the situation wasn't properly monitored and directions followed, thus negating its recommendation today. With that said, I've decided to do a run of Chemtool.

For the sake of those who are curious and "science", I've added 6 ounces in my crankcase and poured the rest in my gas tank. I will drive my vehicle for 500 miles, then drain and post pictures of the filter cartridge element. Why? Not to clean up sludge or anything of that sort, just want to see if I can quiet down my lifters. Vehicle is a 1994 BMW 318is with ~220,000 miles on the original engine block. This car is driven all-city (zero highway), and I'll be operating it at 750-3,500 RPM. Currently I have 5w30 Nexgen Conventional at roughly 4,000 miles of use. So at 4,500 I'll drain it and report my findings. I've ran Chemtool for 100 miles thus far, and I'm happy to report that a slight lifter tick at start up is less ambient and the oil is starting to get slightly more opaque. Keep tuned.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2991479 05/02/13 02:58 PM
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KCJeep Offline
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Six ounces doesn't seem like much, I know it is strong stuff though. Good idea to take it easy.

Please DO be sure to follow up with what you find.


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep] #2991517 05/02/13 03:47 PM
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Mystic Offline
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I would use Kreen before I used Chemtool B12. I would be really leery about using Chemtool B12. Kreen I think is just safer.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: Mystic] #2991557 05/02/13 04:38 PM
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Trav Offline
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I do use Chemtool but only for 10 min at idle. No load on the engine.
If you feel Kreen it does have some lubricity Chemtool doesn't.

I use it only as a last resort for a stuck lifter or something similar.
In a decent running and reasonably clean engine i use only oil. Personally i am not an additive fan but they have their place.

JMHO.


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep] #2991775 05/02/13 08:11 PM
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tommygunn Offline
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Quote:
I would use Kreen before I used Chemtool B12. I would be really leery about using Chemtool B12. Kreen I think is just safer.
I'm no chemist....but they seem very similar.....Kreen just keeps their formulation under wraps.....Berryman's is very open per their MSDS......some acetone, methanol, Xylenes, and some other stuff......and yes, I've heard the misnomer too, through the years Berryman decided to remove the crankcase directions from the can, because people were mis-dosing......and actually, if I recall (it's been a while) the dosing I believe was 6 oz. for 4 cylinder engines, and 8 oz. for 6 cylinders.......or something like that.

The thing that gets me, is the flash point......as with Kreen, I'm willing to bet that stuff flashes off pretty quick....but the vapors must still do some cleaning around the crankcase.....I've used it here and there, typically prior to an oil change.....basically same procedure as Kreen....6 or so ounces (it's a pain to measure.....probably one of the other reasons they removed the directions from the steel can LOL......) about 1000 miles before my next OCI....


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2991795 05/02/13 08:34 PM
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Except for the proprietary ingredients that aren't disclosed for Kreen on the MSDS (5-15%), Kreen and B-12 currently appear to be very similar. However, the MSDS for B-12 is not consistent. The previous MSDS for B-12 was quite different from the current. Kreen's lubricity appears to come from the fact that it contains oil (15-25%). I don't see anything in the MSDSs that would make B-12 harsher except for the absence of dilution of other ingredients with oil.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2991827 05/02/13 09:19 PM
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I used B12 as piston soak and it removed a lot of carbon from pistons. Way more than MMO.

I would say Kreen is similar, but contains some more toxic ingredients. The Kreen smoke after Kreen soak is very very bad. Chlorocarbons are my guess.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2991956 05/03/13 04:13 AM
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SuperDave456 Offline
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Don't forget that a key ingredient to Kreen is Kroil.

Kroil is a penetrating oil that really does penetrate and creep its way into places. Unlike some brands which are just oil in a can.

I'm on the fence about B-12. I've used it successfully to clean up old carbs that I didn't want to tear apart. Specifically I used to add 2 cans of the stuff to a full tank and drive it like it was stolen.
But I'm really not sure about it going into the crankcase.

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2992350 05/03/13 01:54 PM
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FWIW, at one time (40 years ago) B-12 cans had instructions for using it in the cranckcase. On the occasions that I've poured it into a cranckcase, I did so into a hot engine and the liquid immediately started to "boil" and vaporize. As I recall, this vaporizing was touted to be similar to a steam clean, IIRC.

I recall seeing cranckcase use instructions on a containeras recently as a few years ago. The instructions say to pour it into a cold engine and then run it.

Unless the formula has changed between 1960 and now, I'd say that after a few minutes of running at operating temperature, the B-12 is "gone".

I'd still change the oil soon afterwards so whatever cleaned residue that might remain is completely out of the crankcase.


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Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2994245 05/05/13 10:35 PM
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2000Trooper Offline
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why not use thick oil with B12? would that not work?

Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001] #2994287 05/06/13 01:37 AM
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trooper001 Offline OP
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Just using what is already in the crankcase. No sense letting perfectly good oil go to waste. And B12 will work with any oil viscosity, if that was your question.

And for those standing by, I'll have a full report next weekend. I'm almost done with my run.

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