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Re: BG ATF flush #297001 11/28/05 11:46 AM
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Big Jim Offline
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DOT 5 brake fluid is silicon based and is not compatable with DOT 3 and DOT 4. DOT 5 is not compatable with ABS.

DOT 4 has a higher boiling point than DOT 3. To achieve the higher boiling point, slightly different chemistry is needed. IIRC the addition of boron esters in the blend. Many feel that DOT 4 can be used in DOT 3 systems. Some disagree. General Motors in particular doesn't like to see that substitution.

I use DOT 4 fluid in my car that is speced for DOT 3.

There is a lot more to brake fluid than mentioned here, including DOT 5.1 which is compatable with DOT 3 and DOT 4 but not with DOT 5. There is also a DOT 6 that is compatable with DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1.

I just saw an add in Motor Trend for a brake fluid that seems to have a higher boiling point than any of those. At $24.00 a liter I'm probably not going to be buying it soon.

Re: BG ATF flush #297002 11/29/05 12:35 PM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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I'd like more info on that fluid, Big Jim, but while I would be tempted to get it, it would take a month for me to get it, and at this moment the car is freezing in the lot of the place that will do the work. The brake fluid will likely be fine. If not, I've OK'd them to do their BG thing. All of it will be over by the time most of y'all read this / most will be done within 12 hours. Or else I'll obsess about the plugs and wires and whatever else for a few months [Wink]
Thanks for all the input!
Rob

Re: BG ATF flush #297003 11/30/05 02:14 AM
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Big Jim Offline
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Try this. I know nothing about this fluid except that I saw the ad in Motor Trend.

http://www.quadrigamotorsports.com/

Re: BG ATF flush #297004 11/30/05 06:01 AM
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wiswind Offline
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Rob,
Read up on what is called for in the way of fluids. Take note of the specification names (DOT) and numbers (3) using DOT 3 brake fluid as an example.

Then shop for the fluid that lists the specification name and number that you need.
Reline lists it all on their website.

Your car's factory manual will also tell you how often to change the tranny fluid. Consider that the MAXIMUM mileage that you should leave the fluid in there.

I have redline Power steering fluid in my '96 windstar....and it is great. Has been through 2 summers and 1 winter. You can also install a filter in the Power Steering return line....which is the low pressure line. Magnifine makes a great filter that has a magnet....paper element....and a pressure bypass to let the fluid flow, should the filter become clogged. The magnifine filter is sold under a lot of different brand names....including ATP.

Brake fluid...Newer factory manuals seem to tell you to remove some of the brake fluid from the master cylinder....then compress the caliper cylinder when doing a brake job. This is in place of the old method...of "Bleeding" the brakes. The factory instructions use this "new" method for my car. What this means is.....the fluid at the caliper or cylinder could be nasty stuff indeed. So YES....I would do the major bleed as you have been advised. I use Motorcraft "Premium" brake fluid...which is DOT 3....but has a "dry" boil point of 550 degrees (F).
There are a number of good brands out there.
Use brake fluid ONLY from a new, sealed container...as a container that has been opened and sitting around on the back of that shelf in the garage has been taking on moisture....and should NOT be used.

Removing Catalytic converters on a OBDII car (all cars from 1996 on) may create some issues with the computer. The computer on OBDII cars monitors the catalytic converter to make sure that it is actually working. There is a oxygen sensor before the converter for the engine control.....and one after the converter that is specifically to monitor "catalyst efficiency".
I have 2 catalytic converters....and as such....I have 4 oxygen sensors....
Here in wisconsin.....OBDII cars fly right through the emission testing that many of us have to go through every other year......and even then...they still slide a mirror under the car for a visual verification.

Re: BG ATF flush #297005 11/30/05 11:53 PM
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Alex P. Offline
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If you can legally run without a cat, and you absolutely wanted to run without one, you could use an O2 simulator so your computer doesn't get disgruntled.

Re: BG ATF flush #297006 12/15/05 12:45 PM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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Perhaps [Off Topic!] or new topic, but the trans issues being complete, I am wondering about the BG (engine oil) flush. Keep in mind there is no guarantee that an oil change will be done. I do not want their chemicals, I have Auto-RX to last several years but didn't use it because the engine has 50,000 KM at the most and had an oil change or two with way under 3000 miles on the oil, before I bought it. I changed the oil again and shortly thereafter changed it again while installing the by-pass oil filter.

What I like about the BG system, but have not seen it in action, is the way it blows air through and gets 1/2 quart or so that would be left in the engine even if the drain plug was out for an hour. Then this air pressure flows oil all through the system after the fresh oil is added.
Would this be a good opportunity to take samples of the first few ounces, when the drain plug is still partly in; and another sample mid-stream, and another from that blow-out of the oil that would normally stay trapped, and compare the 3 samples? Expensive and a tad wasteful but if there is real value to it I might consider it.
I look forward to your inputs
Thanks
Rob

Re: BG ATF flush #297007 12/17/05 11:46 AM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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Alex P, you wrote "If you can legally run without a cat and you absolutely wanted to run without one..."
I don't care about the law, I will keep the catalytic converter unless it is clear that it is toast, is costing me 2+ mpg, etc. Then I think the David Suzuki in me (look up his name on Google if ya have to) would save up for a new (low-restriction, like from a hoppier 3800, perhaps) catalytic converter.
THANKS!!
Rob

Re: BG ATF flush #297008 12/18/05 08:38 AM
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Bio-T Offline
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Rob,

The cost of the flush versus the drain only method is very wide. And the benefit is minimal to non-existant. Just drain the oil and let your engine enjoy the new fluid. In my diesel, 2 quarts are left in the HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) during a oil change. My UOA's are not affected and if the oil change is done the same each time the trend continues.

[Smile]

Re: BG ATF flush #297009 12/18/05 10:47 AM
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Hammer Offline
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quote:
The cost of the flush versus the drain only method is very wide. And the benefit is minimal to non-existant. Just drain the oil and let your engine enjoy the new fluid. In my diesel, 2 quarts are left in the HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) during a oil change. My UOA's are not affected and if the oil change is done the same each time the trend continues.
Tony, you may be surprised to know, that the HPOP reservoir actually only hold about 3/4 of a quart of oil. I have been well aquainted with the reservoir recently dealing with the twin custom HPOP setup on my truck.

Hammer

Re: BG ATF flush #297010 12/18/05 12:09 PM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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Whether it is 3/4 quart or 2 full quarts, you are saying this test has been done before and there is no need at all for me to do extra tests as a contribution to the BITOG Fellowship?
Who tested to learn the difference was minimal to non-existant?
It does not make sense that the difference is minimal to non-existant (mind you I'm tired and stuff...) I'm surely not disagreeing, since I have not seen any data whatsoever, I'm just saying it makes sense to me to get out all the old oil, and I'd like to know more about it and WHY this step has no significant effect.
As for the cost, if they are going to be replacing the bypass filter element, the labour and time cost difference is kinda elevated anyway. It's just 6 months since my last drain & new spin-on and new by-pass. I wonder if I should even bother with UOA.
Perhaps [Off Topic!] again but lately the oil pressure guage has stayed in the (low critical) red zone too long, upon starting. The super-cold temps have not hit yet although I also have not used the heaters (oil, battery, block heater) because I haven't felt the need (only difference between 5W30 and 0W30 is under about -20 C anyway, no?)...what might be the reason? The Redline got thicker in 6 months? Battery issue? I need GC? FWIW the spin-on is under 800 miles in use.
THANKS
Rob-The-Oil-Nut

Re: BG ATF flush #297011 12/19/05 10:22 PM
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Alex P. Offline
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I'll skip back to the cat issue briefly. On newer 3800 vehicles like my Impala, ANY non-stock catalytic converter will cause the computer to throw a code because of the change in feedback from the O2 sensor. That is unless you use an O2 simulator for the downstream sensor. Keep that in mind.

As for the last bit of oil driven out by the air, that's not a big deal. The actual process of chemically flushing or using a product like ARX to clean is one thing. But that last bit of oil just isn't significant, and I'll point out why I feel this way. If you change your oil hot, the oil has been circulated pretty well, and has most of the nasties in suspension. There shouldn't be oil hiding somewhere that is significantly filthier.

So that last little bit won't matter, unless your engine holds out a lot more after a drain than 1/2 a quart, and has a small sump. Drain, new filter, fresh oil. As long as you do that roughly on time, you'll be fine oil-wise. I'm not saying that removing that last bit of dirty oil isn't good, but it won't matter much.

Re: BG ATF flush #297012 12/20/05 12:21 AM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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D'oh! I just ASSUMED all good mechanics did ALL oil changes with the engine hot. I explained I didn't want / need an oil change but since the intake manifold plenum gasket will be getting done, it is likely that crud will fall into the engine, thus the need. And if there is definate crud in there I'd rather they drain it cold, than have that crud (especially if it's tiny bits of metal!) circulate. Granted, the spin-on and the by-pass should get it, but better safe than lose sleep fretting about the wear numbers being 0.0001 too high [Big Grin]
Again, "D'oh!" I feel silly for not having thought that. In a way the BG is a BAD thing as it allows a mechanic to not drain ASAP, but I'm not a mechanic and what I know of their jobs, they cannot be expected to be draining within 5 minutes of getting the car in their bay. They do it real quick at the quickie-marts but going there has, ummm, a few potential draw-backs [Razz]
THANKS
Rob

Re: BG ATF flush #297013 12/21/05 04:48 AM
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LACTD Offline
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If you want a "cheap" brake flush - go to a parts store and purchase a peice of plain rubber hose that will fit over the bleed screw and a quart of fluid. A quart jar is placed under the near the back wheel with the end of the hose submerged in 1" of fluid. Pump the brake until the master cylinder is empty --refill and do it again, but not quite empty, refill, close the bleed screw and the brake is bled and flushed. You can mark the fluid level with a marker after each wheel to keep track of how much fluid you run thru each wheel. Keep the end of hose in the fluid to prevent air from being sucked back into the system when you let up on the pedel. You can do this by yourself, if need be. :>)

Re: BG ATF flush #297014 12/21/05 11:33 AM
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rob-the-oil-nut Offline OP
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Nifty idea but a tad late. It needed quite a flushing, the brake fluid was literally dirtier than my dipstick. In addition, the bleeder screws were siezed / rusted into place and I was told that they might break off. He used some rust penetrating stuff and let it sit, weaseled it back and forth 1 mm each way for about 10 mins before going to 2 and 3 mm of unscrewing. They didn't break off, which is kida too bad because if new ones were going to go on, they could be painted and make my car look a bit hotter [Big Grin]
It's out of the 'shop' now and the main thing is, the service engine light came on. Probably an inconvenience or nuissance thing and if not, THEY did it [Big Grin] (but that mechanic is a good, long-time friend)
Thanks
Rob

Re: BG ATF flush #297015 12/28/05 06:51 AM
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jkhawaii Offline
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to totally change out your ATF you need at least 12 quarts usually
depending on what car you have. dropping the pan is usually about 4-5 quarts the rest is in the torque converter
if you do have a shop do it tell them you do not want the additives they can dump it into there oil drain or keep it for themselves

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