Vegetable oil as a crankcase additive?

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Given some of the ridiculous fuel prices lately I've been looking into biodiesel, though I don't have a diesel vehicle yet. What I've learned is that vegetable oil as compared to diesel is a very strong solvent and adds lubrication.

What if you added around a quart of fresh new vegetable oil to your engine like a flush? Would it hurt any seals or gaskets in the engine?

I know some companies are selling vegetable based engine oils. Do these oils offer any superior cleaning qualities, sort of like synthetic oil?
 
DON'T! The commercial materials are laced with additives to inhibit the natural tendency of vegetable oils to polymerize when heated in the presence of oxygen. Most metals catalyze it. As a motor oil, vegetable oils are a real sows ear. If you want a silk purse, start with something else.

I put some cooking oil, and some Pennzoil on a metal plate and laid it on my quartz work light. the cooking oil solidified in about a half hour.

Bio Diesel is kept at ambient temperature until it is burned completely. Not sure i would store an engine with Bio Diesel in it.
 
I was thinking more like a temporary flush, you know, add a quart, let the engine idle for a little while or take it for a short drive, and then dump the oil.

What if you used regular biodiesel and not just vegetable oil? I'm not completely sure about what goes into the making of it yet, but I know you end up with quite a bit of leftover garbage that is no longer in the oil. I know people use regular diesel fuel as a flush, and if biodiesel is a stronger solvent, seems like it would work better, no?
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Also, why doesn't cooking oil solidify when you COOK with it?
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i would highly recommend not doing it, biodiesel comes from used cooking oil, with some chemistry to turn it into biodeisel and filtering to remove solids. sure they used deisel as a flush? its not far off from kerosene, which can be used as a flush. and havn't you ever noticed in a frying pan, the cooking oil kinda gets thick? labman probablly used much, much less in his little experiment then what you use in a frying pan. if you search biodeisel, i'm sure you'll turn up something, i remember a show where the man made some, can't remeber it all though. just stick with a flush, made for such.
 
Again, talking about NEW vegetable oil. Biodiesel is any fuel made from plant oils, whether it's new or used oil. If you added 1 quart to a 5 quart crankcase that would be like B20. (20% biodiesel/80% petrolium diesel) I know there are thousands of people that run this in completely unmodified vehicles, and overall it's better for the engine. There are problems in older vehicles with clogged filters, etc, in the beginning because of the cleaning properties of B20 or even leaner mixes. Just like synthetic oil.

Wouldn't it do the same thing in the crankcase? I still don't understand how the oil is supposed to thicken when you heat it. Haven't you ever seen a deep fryer? It's full of very thin, very hot oil. The oil solidifies when it cools off...that's why people who run straight vegetable oil as fuel heat it first. Some people even run grease so thick they have to shovel it into their car, and once it's heated it works fine.
 
if you made the veggie oil into motor oil first then dumped it in the crankcase then what you are saying might make sense.
with B20 you are mixing fuel with fuel, both of which are designed for the purpose of being fuel.
under the same idea as your "oil is oil" theory why don't you mix gasoline with diesel? they are both labeled as fuel and are both burned in engines.
 
Why don't I mix gasoline with diesel? Because it would provide me no benefits and ruin whatever kind of engine you put it in. Mixing 20% vegetable oil into diesel fuel on the other hand lowers emissions, increases lubrication, decreases emissions, and cleans out your fuel system VERY well. This I alredy know.

My question is will the same thing happen if you put it in the crankcase short term, and if not, why?

With B20 you are not "mixing fuel with fuel", you are mixing fuel oil with plant oil. Plant oil was never "designed" for any purpose.
 
Biodiesel(vegetable oil methyl/ethyl esters) makes an excellent fuel. At a lowly 2%, it improves fuel lubricity. Its too thin to use in motor oil.
But, like kerosene and other distillates, it'll make a great 5-minute cold engine flush at about 20% blend with your crankcase oil.
Some warnings concerning any flushes: engine must be cold(at least 8 hours off), engine should only be run at idle(no loads or driving), engine should not be run for more than 10 minutes, and biodiesel isn't to friendly to certain materials(like rubber used in seals/gaskets/hoses).

I don't see straight vegetable as a flush. If someone wants to use a sludged engine as a guinea pig for trying a 10 minute flush with straight vegetable oil, take before/after pictures and share the results. Some of the 'pro-refined vegetable oil crowd' claim serious engine cleaning by using vegetable bases motor oils.
 
quote:

What if you added around a quart of fresh new vegetable oil to your engine like a flush? Would it hurt any seals or gaskets in the engine?

I know some companies are selling vegetable based engine oils. Do these oils offer any superior cleaning qualities, sort of like synthetic oil?

What kind of vegetable oil are we talking about? You never stated and you have to be careful because some veggie oils are very thin and may thin down your PCMO to critical levels such that you may see increased wear.

In addition, most veggie oils contain no extra anti-oxidants to keep the stuff from turning into a rancid goo.

Plain vegetable oil has no real cleaning qualities. Now reacted and synthesized vegetable oils can act as solvents but are generally very thin.

PCMO oils made from vegetable oils are specially reacted and synthesized oils with specific anti-oxidants added.

If you want an environmentally safe cleaning solution that is 100% natural, use AUTO-RX, a site sponser.
 
quote:

What kind of vegetable oil are we talking about?

What kind do you suggest I use?

quote:

If you want an environmentally safe cleaning solution that is 100% natural, use AUTO-RX, a site sponser.

Unfortuneately, nearly $25/bottle isn't going to happen for the 15 vehicles I have to take care of. New veggie oil is only about $3-5/gallon. It would be easy to make a 5 gallon batch of biodiesel to keep around just for this use.

I think I'm going to make a small batch and test it out. Are there any other ingredients I might want to try with this experiment? Does everyone agree that 20% would be a good ratio?
 
If want to try it I would try Canola oil. It's been used as a cutting oil and as an industrial lubricant so you're not exactly doing something that has never been done before. It's probably your safest bet. You can get a gallon for around $12? or maybe even less.

You could try 1/2 Canola and 1/2 Kerosene or diesel oil for a flush experiment or 2/3 Canola and 1/3 Kerosene or Diesel.

If you buy oil at Sam's club it's really inexpensive but read the ingredients. I would stay away from corn oil. Peanut is pretty expensive and don't use olive for sure, it starts to smoke at a much lower temperature. Soybean oil has been used in biodiesel, but I'm not that familliar with it's temperature properties. Lots of information on the internet about Canola/Rape seed oil if you're willing to wade through it all.
 
I believe this is the company that resells agromgt's oil 100%? vegetable motor oil(AMG2000):
http://www.sterlinggrade.com/

This oil, I believe, is a 20% blend of veggie oil along with special additives and other oils(whether synth/mineral unknown). I guess that the 20% blend is for "safety sake".
http://renewablelube.com/

The biggest problem with supermarket vegetable oil is that it is refined to be human consumption safe, deodorized, and to look pretty in the clear bottle. Supposedly, this is why they make weak lubricants, and why using crisco/mazola/wesson are the wrong vegetable basestocks to start with.
For example, see what these companies do to veggie oil for our FDA approved consumption:
http://www.iseo.org/dir_plant.htm

My understanding is that you need to start with the raw pressed(not chemically extracted) vegetable oil and then refine/blend it specifically for use as a lubricant. You probably won't get FDA approval "for licking dipsticks" any time soon.

If you are a rebel and want to try it, then follow the simple "safety" rules typically found on bottles of 5-10 minute distillate-type engine flushes:
Don't exceed 20% when adding your (insert whatever here) to your motor oil.
Only use your(insert whatever) flush on a cold engine. This way the cold motor oil(80%) will provide enough viscosity.
Don't drive/rev the vehicle. No real load/stress should help prevent wear.
Don't run the engine for more then 10 minutes. This way, the oil temp never rises high enough to "stress" that (insert whatever).

Also, you might want to try this test prior to turning your engine into a test subject:
Pick your vegetable oil, blend it with some old motor oil from a previous oil change, cook it in the kitchen at around 200F for 1/2 hour or so. Then, let it cool and settle for a day or two. If there is no breaking down/sludging/separation/gelling, you will probably be safe with the above mentioned 10 minute 'flush'.
 
I'm in a bit of a hurry but veggie oil does not equal biodiesel.

You need to de-glycerolize veggie oils...or they are useless or worse as "cleaners".....that's what making biodiesel is all about.
 
In refining dino, you remove all the unsaturated materials leaving an inherently stable material. The entire class from methane to ultra high weight polyethylene are called paraffins from the Greek for without affinity. They will react, but it takes more harsh conditions than in the bearings of an engine, say the combustion chamber.

Regardless of what you refine out of soybean oil, even high oleic content, it is still unsaturated and inherently unstable. It can't tell the difference between being spread on the fender to form a hard film, on the upper cylinder walls, or the combustion chamber. Unless it is overwhelmed with oxygen scavengers, it is going to react. It is possible to add enough oxygen and free radical scavengers to keep it liquid as a motor oil for a while. Cooking oils don't have what it takes for that use.

Soybean and other vegetable oils do have fairly good solvency. They have 3 ester linkages to solvate polar materials and a long hydrocarbon tail to solvate non polar materials. Unlike other solvents they don't evaporate and produce inflammable vapors. Cooking oil could make a good tar remover.

By reacting soybean oil with methanol, you form glycerin and the methyl ester with a viscosity and vapor pressure more suitable for use as a diesel fuel.
 
I have a perfect test engine for this, a mid 70s 454 that has been quite neglected. I have to take the valve cover off anyway, so I'll try and take some before and after pics. I think I'll do the flush with fresh clean motor oil too just to see how black it gets.

I think I have too much free time...
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Just got back from Costco, they have Soybean oil for about $3.40/gallon. Canola was about $5.60/gallon. Would canola work any better than soybean oil?
 
biodiesel and veggie oil are not the same thing. biodiesel is refined veggie oil. there are conversion kits to run your vehicle on straight veggie oil but Biodiesel is interchangeable with regular diesel.
still going with your "oil is oil" theory, why don't you run gear oil in your engine? why not cutting/machining oil? sewing machine oil? 3in1 oil? fish oil? neatsfoot oil? mink oil? every oil is designed for a specific purpose, you can't just mix and match.
 
Tom, why do you have such a beef with me using vegetable oil? Why do you keep suggesting I run random BAD things in my engine? Haven't you read any posts on this thread? The purpose is to use an oil that will have a POSITIVE effect on the engine. Gear oil or any of the other oils you suggested obviously would not. If they did I would use them. Vegetable oil is a very different story.

quote:

every oil is designed for a specific purpose, you can't just mix and match.

No, no, no it's not. Oil is a NATURAL product. Especially vegetable oil. It wasn't designed by anyone but g0d for any purpose at all. If you want to get specific about it diesel engines were never designed to run on petrolium distilates. Rudolph Diesel ran his first diesel engine on peanut oil. In the 20's and 30's fuel oil was the "waste oil". I'm not just mixing and matching. What do you think I made this thread for?

[ November 07, 2005, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: OilyWater ]
 
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