Serpentine Belt Replacement = more power

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Originally Posted By: chrome
Most if not all modern cars will have ECU regulated alternators. If a belt does slip, and alternator voltage drops, the ECU will regulate and bring voltage back up.

For the voltage to drop so far that the ECU cannot compensate, you will need a serious amount of slippage on the belt. You will definitely notice the noise and smoke.


Voltage might go up, but remember that the total power remains the same. All that upping voltage does is reduce current, which maybe saves a tiny bit through less voltage drop losses due to lower current flow.

But the power remains the same, higher voltage only equals lower current, not less load on the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Voltage might go up, but remember that the total power remains the same. All that upping voltage does is reduce current, which maybe saves a tiny bit through less voltage drop losses due to lower current flow.

But the power remains the same, higher voltage only equals lower current, not less load on the engine.


That's right, so from a technical standpoint a worn belt cannot drop voltage so far that the ignition system starts to underperform and cause a loss of power (as per quote from driveaccord forum).
 
Originally Posted By: chrome

That's right, so from a technical standpoint a worn belt cannot drop voltage so far that the ignition system starts to underperform and cause a loss of power (as per quote from driveaccord forum).


A worn belt cant necessarily drop voltage - the dynamic is actually slightly different - an inability to generate to meet load can.

Look at it this way - the car has a given power draw. Forget that the guy quoted said amps - the car has some amount of load... Let's say it is 100W.

It doesnt matter if the car puts out 7.29A at 13.7V or 6.89A at 14.5V, the load on the engine is the same (within some fraction of a percent due to efficiency of the alternator). So if a belt is slipping, for a given power draw, when a transient occurs, the system cant keep up and it will be bogged down. Not because of current per se, but because the load has increased and the alternator cant keep up to the load, the battery discharges, and then after the load goes away, the whole system has to catch back up when it can. The load is presented by the DC system in the car, the load is variable and the altenrator doesnt control it, it just generates according to the load. But the generation capability is only as good as the mechanical energy that can get worked on it via the belt. If the belt slips, then as the alternator has more load (harder to turn), the belt can only impart so much energy in, and it slides on the pulley. The alternator puts out what it can, and since the battery is there, it gives the rest, but the system droops under the load.

Is it a viable scenario? Sure. Is it a viable reason why the car felt bogged down? That I cannot say.
 
^ best explanation yet!

cheers3.gif
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
A worn belt cant necessarily drop voltage - the dynamic is actually slightly different - an inability to generate to meet load can.

Look at it this way - the car has a given power draw. Forget that the guy quoted said amps - the car has some amount of load... Let's say it is 100W.

It doesnt matter if the car puts out 7.29A at 13.7V or 6.89A at 14.5V, the load on the engine is the same (within some fraction of a percent due to efficiency of the alternator). So if a belt is slipping, for a given power draw, when a transient occurs, the system cant keep up and it will be bogged down. Not because of current per se, but because the load has increased and the alternator cant keep up to the load, the battery discharges, and then after the load goes away, the whole system has to catch back up when it can. The load is presented by the DC system in the car, the load is variable and the altenrator doesnt control it, it just generates according to the load. But the generation capability is only as good as the mechanical energy that can get worked on it via the belt. If the belt slips, then as the alternator has more load (harder to turn), the belt can only impart so much energy in, and it slides on the pulley. The alternator puts out what it can, and since the battery is there, it gives the rest, but the system droops under the load.

Is it a viable scenario? Sure. Is it a viable reason why the car felt bogged down? That I cannot say.


I see what you mean. An alternator presented with transient loads will always be playing "catch up", right up to the limit of the belt's ability to transfer mechanical power to the drive pulley. A worn belt will potentially slip when the alternator loads up, and limits the ability of the alternator to "catch up" with the transient load, thus causing a drain on the battery reserve.

I agree the above is viable, but the belt must be really worn and slipping badly. I still don't see how it can cause an engine to bog or lose power though. If the load is greater than the belt power transfer capabilities, the slippage will generate noise and heat, something which will be pretty obvious.
 
The low end lag is completley gone. Car feels significantly better. It's very odd and something I never expected, or thought was possible but it clear has made a difference.
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
A worn belt cant necessarily drop voltage - the dynamic is actually slightly different - an inability to generate to meet load can.

Look at it this way - the car has a given power draw. Forget that the guy quoted said amps - the car has some amount of load... Let's say it is 100W.

It doesnt matter if the car puts out 7.29A at 13.7V or 6.89A at 14.5V, the load on the engine is the same (within some fraction of a percent due to efficiency of the alternator). So if a belt is slipping, for a given power draw, when a transient occurs, the system cant keep up and it will be bogged down. Not because of current per se, but because the load has increased and the alternator cant keep up to the load, the battery discharges, and then after the load goes away, the whole system has to catch back up when it can. The load is presented by the DC system in the car, the load is variable and the altenrator doesnt control it, it just generates according to the load. But the generation capability is only as good as the mechanical energy that can get worked on it via the belt. If the belt slips, then as the alternator has more load (harder to turn), the belt can only impart so much energy in, and it slides on the pulley. The alternator puts out what it can, and since the battery is there, it gives the rest, but the system droops under the load.

Is it a viable scenario? Sure. Is it a viable reason why the car felt bogged down? That I cannot say.


I see what you mean. An alternator presented with transient loads will always be playing "catch up", right up to the limit of the belt's ability to transfer mechanical power to the drive pulley. A worn belt will potentially slip when the alternator loads up, and limits the ability of the alternator to "catch up" with the transient load, thus causing a drain on the battery reserve.

I agree the above is viable, but the belt must be really worn and slipping badly. I still don't see how it can cause an engine to bog or lose power though. If the load is greater than the belt power transfer capabilities, the slippage will generate noise and heat, something which will be pretty obvious.


Here are my thoughts.
Perhaps the belt slippage is the worst during the cold start and first few miles. During that time the alternator cannot catch up and the battery drains even further. However once the belt warms up sufficiently it is possible that the slippage stops or is reduced greatly. However by then perhaps the load is not constant, as JHZR2 mentioned, but it increased due to alternators inability to catch up with the load, so now the load is say 120W instead of 100W because the battery took a hit more than normal. This extra load means the alternator is even harder to turn and since the belt regained most of its grip, the car now feels more sluggish.
It is entirely possible that because the new belt eliminated any slippage, the alternator is not overloaded anymore so it creates less parasitic drag on the engine.
 
http://www.daycow.com/daycow.nsf/NewBeltConstructions!OpenPage

Maybe the throttle body wasn't getting enough power or possibly the ECU was misfiring?

All I know is the engine is now silent and the lag is gone! See original thread on driveaccord where the OP noticed the exact same thing.

If you gon on Daycos site, they don't mention anything about power gains from replacing serp belts. It may just be a rare case, and particular to this engine/model.
 
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It is entirely possible that because the new belt eliminated any slippage, the alternator is not overloaded anymore so it creates less parasitic drag on the engine.


thumbsup2.gif
 
Typical 50% alternator load; for 70amp alternator, that is 35amps. 35*12 = 720Watts

1 HP = 746Watts

You car has how many horsepower engine? Do you think 720Watts load is going to bog it down?

Even if you go to 100% load at 110A alternator, you are still talking about less than 3HP being taken by the alternator!

You don't need a doctorate degree to see why your premise is not making any mathematical sense.
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
What's so special about Gatorback belt ?


They shred. But before they do that, they are probably the quietest belt you can buy. They are also made in Mexico. Personally, I prefer the made in USA Dayco ones that are thicker.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
Even if you go to 100% load at 110A alternator, you are still talking about less than 3HP being taken by the alternator!

You don't need a doctorate degree to see why your premise is not making any mathematical sense.


I don't know about that. The AC compressor takes few horse power to run and I can definitely feel that on my four bangers. Math cannot explain everything, especially human perception.
 
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You don't need a doctorate degree to see why your premise is not making any mathematical sense.

I can only tell you what I noticed. I do not have a degree in electrical engineering, and I'm not a mechanic.

However, I did noticed a change and so did the OP in the Driveaccord forum. As to what is causing it I couldn't tell you. The explanations above are good, but it's impossible to really determine unless I did some serious testing which I'm not about to do. LOL
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Even if you go to 100% load at 110A alternator, you are still talking about less than 3HP being taken by the alternator!

You don't need a doctorate degree to see why your premise is not making any mathematical sense.


I don't know about that. The AC compressor takes few horse power to run and I can definitely feel that on my four bangers. Math cannot explain everything, especially human perception.



Yes, many complain about AC sucking power, and one can definitely see on many cars that the engine does have a slight RPM bog when the compressor kicks on.

I dont necessarily buy it, I cant say Ive noticed AC or anything else on my cars, but some do, who am I to call them a liar?
 
My car really gets bogged down with the AC. It seems much more noticeable in 4 cylinders, especially those with low torque.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Typical 50% alternator load; for 70amp alternator, that is 35amps. 35*12 = 720Watts

1 HP = 746Watts

You car has how many horsepower engine? Do you think 720Watts load is going to bog it down?

Even if you go to 100% load at 110A alternator, you are still talking about less than 3HP being taken by the alternator!

You don't need a doctorate degree to see why your premise is not making any mathematical sense.


One problem with this argument is that it doesn't take into account the torque curve. Supposing that the alternator load takes up 1 HP, nobody's saying you can feel that at peak power, where the engine has ~160 HP at WOT, 6700 RPM or whatever. But you might be able to feel it when you're revving from 1500 to 3500 RPM at 1/3 throttle and making far less than 160 HP (thus the loss is proportionally higher compared w/ power output).

Just one possible explanation. I think the whole perception CAN be explained by math/physics, but the math/physics has to take the right variables into account.


As an aside, I have been able to tell the difference between AC on and AC off in some of my cars, but in some cases it may be more of a throttle response tuning thing than a max power thing.
 
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But you might be able to feel it when you're revving from 1500 to 3500 RPM at 1/3 throttle and making far less than 160 HP (thus the loss is proportionally higher compared w/ power output).



This is when I noticed the change the most, between those two rpm figures.
 
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