Under a CR-V's valve cover

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Originally Posted By: BrianWC
When this thread was originally posted, I was just 20 days past buying a new Si with the k24z7 engine. Within the lifespan of the factory fill, my cam lobes looked the exact same way. I've since run heavier oils, usually a franken-mix of whatever I have on the shelves of my aging stash, and the cam lobes have not gotten any worse. So perhaps the cams are allowed to get those lines on the very outer surface but nothing beyond???

I've similarly run whatever oil was closest in my '02 CR-V for probably ten of the eleven years I've owned it (ran M1 5W30 the first) and it's still motoring along.


It is completely normal for there to be a "track" where the roller follows the lobe (in a roller valvetrain application). You won't be able to feel it with your finger, but its presence is expected given the finish on the lobe itself after it has been ground. As the lubricated wheel acts against the slightly irregularly finished surface, the surface becomes less irregular and these "tracks" are just the result of that.

Depending on how shiny the finish was on the lobe when it was made will determine how visible this characteristic is.

To demonstrate how harmless this is, I've had the valve covers off a Modular that was extremely low mileage (my buddy's 02 GT) and where the roller followed the lobe was visible. I also had the valve covers off a Crown Vic with north of 400,000Km on it at the wreckers and it had the same tracks. No better, no worse
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Even in applications with much higher valve spring pressure (relatively speaking here) like my 302's, the 2nd of which had the factory cam in it until ~312,000Km, the finish on the cam was "like new". But you could still see where the roller lifters followed the cam profile on the lobes.
 
Right and I hope I didn't mean to make my post look anti-20 weight or anything. Really I was just pointing out that regardless of the quality of the oil, my two k24's seem to take it in stride.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It is completely normal for there to be a "track" where the roller follows the lobe (in a roller valvetrain application). You won't be able to feel it with your finger, but its presence is expected given the finish on the lobe itself after it has been ground. As the lubricated wheel acts against the slightly irregularly finished surface, the surface becomes less irregular and these "tracks" are just the result of that.


Additionally, the surface of the roller follower wheel will not be absolutely perfectly flat, or likely absolutely perfectly parallel with the surface of the cam lobe...at least initially. So witness lines like these will naturally form as each individual roller follower wheel and lobe wear-in together (also as noted by BrianWC above). The witness lines will appear quickly as the wear-in occurs, and cause no harm for hundreds of thousands of miles.
 
We see these same marks on the cam lobes of Macks MP series engines at work. When these engines first came out, we questioned Mack about it and they soon released a bulletin stating that this was normal and was only cause for concern if you could feel them with your finger nail. For what its worth to anyone.
 
Hey, I'm the poster boy for cold valve clatter on these engines and trying everything to eliminate it. The engines are so nice and quiet otherwise so the cold "clatter" drove me nuts. I've tried lots of different oils and I've adjusted the valves 3 times trying to figure it out.

The car is a 2004 Accord 2.4L manual. I'm the original owner and I ran it during the warranty on GTX 5/20. Then when I switched to PU 5/30 (yeah, I'm one of those 30 weight guys) but then I noticed for the first time the dreaded cold clatter. Never noticed it on the GTX so yes I deserve flaming for changing to 30 wt! So I opened it up (should have taken pictures but it was nice and clean) and adjusted the valves to spec. Guess what, no difference, still cold clatter!

It had to be valve clatter so I opened it up again and set all the valves slightly tight and guess what? No clatter! Just a gnawing sensation that I'm burning valves (hey, there's gotta be some tolerence there, right... right?). I couldn't take it any longer so after a while I opened it up again and very very carefully set each valve exactly at it's minimum clearance. The clatter was back but not as bad. So it's definitely valve clearance making the noise on this engine.

So what I've found this past year is PYB (SN) 5/30 is the ticket to quiet this clatter (maybe the Moly?) Very quiet running in all phases including cold! I do notice the cold clatter starts coming back at around 4k to 5k miles on the change. Fresh oil, the clatter goes away again. I'm on my 3rd change with PYB. With min clearances on the valves, I'll need to adjust more frequently but it's fairly easy on this engine although as one poster said, it's a bit hard to get the feeler gauge on some of the valves.

By the way, I've tried GC 0w30, M1 5/30, Napa 5/30 full synthetic (that was pretty quiet... for a while!), PP 5/30 and PU 5/30 which was probably the worst in terms of cold clatter. All didn't help the cold clatter like the PYB. So I'm a believer... Now what am I gonna do with all this other oil in my stash? Oh yeah, the other five cars, the two motorcycles, my kids who come home for oil changes, their girlfriends cars...
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Nice and clean. Stick with what you're currently using, along with the interval, it is serving you well.
 
Re: Scout...

Like your Accord: PYB 5w-30 ran a quiet I4/2.4 Camry
...running PP 5w-30 is even quieter...

Diff'rent ols fer diff'rent strokes (as the song goes, perhaps), but thought I'd pass this on to ya anyway...
 
You know, you're right... when the engine is warm PP is absolutely the quietest, but PP was far noisier when the engine was cold and that was my issue...

I'm using PP 10/30 in my BMW Z4 and it is very quiet compared to the GC I was running before.
 
I'm not the only one then.

PYB does run quiet in my engine. I used the 5W-20 variety; I'm sure the 5W-30 would be quiet as well. The PP and PU oils were much louder for me. I never could figure it out. But PYB was good.

I've also found M1's AFE line to be very quiet. Probably quieter even than PYB. I've used 0W-20 before, and I have 0W-30 in it now. It's a toss-up on whether I'll go back to 0W-20 next time.

I'd be interested to hear if your engine is as quiet as mine is on M1 0W-30 if you decide to try that some time.
 
Hi Hokiefyd,
I forgot to mention it in my first post, but I did try a run of M1 0w30 AFE when it first came out. Worked OK, but not nearly as quiet as the PYB, I still heard the cold clatter.

I sort of suspect the high moly in the PYB is what's actually doing the trick since the PP and PU don't have the same level, nor does the M1 AFE. I guess a way to prove that would be to fill up with a low or no Moly oil (Valvoline perhaps) and then throw a bottle of LM MOS2 additive in and see if it quiets down. Hummm... I might try that sometime.
 
By the way, remember I'm running my valves at minimum clearances so it will be a bit nosier with a normal valve adjustment which will allow some valves to be towards the upper tolerance. I'm also pretty sure the noise is coming from the exhaust values which have the greatest clearance (obviously!). They are to the back and the noise comes right through the firewall.

It's interesting to hear a much louder tink tink on these exhaust valves when you hand manipulate the clearance, they really have a pretty wide clearance. Whatever metal Honda chose, they needed a lot of thermal expansion allowance. Perhaps the exhausts just run really hot on these engines due to the extra lean burn system (two O2 sensors). Donno.
 
If you obsess about engine noise that much, have you thought about improving the sound insulation on the vehicle? I started to look into that with my G37 due to the low profile tire noise. Priorities changed(more like waking to reality) and I ended up changing cars to a much quieter F150.
 
Ha ha... show me a guy on this forum who isn't obsessed! Otherwise we'd all be going to Jiffy Lube! I donno, even if I could figure out how to insulate things better, usually you still hear the noise and know what it is... would still make me want to try and fix it! I've been accused of being a perfectionist in the past...

I used to have a friend who said, "If my car starts making noise, I just turn up the radio a bit" :)
 
My scion (2azfe) seems to work the opposite way. Its runs fairly quiet when cold, but once hot, my valve tick starts to get worse. any thoughts on that? Its definitely coming from the top end, and its not the injectors. I would think as the engine heats up, things would expand and the clearance would get smaller, reducing the noise, as it seems to in your Hondas. And it does seem to quiet down somewhat depending on what oil I use, haven't tried pyb yet though. QSUD hadn't seemed to help much, which kinda counteracts most peoples experiences here. For those who don't know, the 2azfe is a cam on bucket design, don't know if that changes things any, although I don't see why it would
 
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
If you obsess about engine noise that much, have you thought about improving the sound insulation on the vehicle? I started to look into that with my G37 due to the low profile tire noise. Priorities changed(more like waking to reality) and I ended up changing cars to a much quieter F150.


I agree. A little too much OCD and whatever other maladies and afflictions plague some around here. I think a low dose of Paxil would help some here.
 
Yeah, that's strange although seems there are a lot of complaints on valve-train noise on these Toyota engines. Sounds like it's a viscosity thing, as the oil heats up and thins out you get more noise than when it's cold and thick. Valve adjustments on those engines look pretty awful with the cam removal and new buckets required to adjust! Since the cam lobe rides directly on the bucket, wonder if a really high HTHS oil might quiet it down? Donno if you're against 30 wts, but GC 0w30 might be the ticket!
 
I understand the SM version of Mobil 1's AFE wasn't as quiet as the newer SN version of it. Many folks have commented on how quiet their engines are on the SN AFE. I haven't used the SM version, so I couldn't compare. I did run PYB 5W-20 directly before this run of M1 0W-30. Cold start was about the same (very good). The PYB was a little louder when warmed-up, though. That could be the difference in grade, though.

On a prior oil change, I had five quarts of PP 0W-20 in it, and as you know, the engine is awfully rattly on that oil. I drained one quart out and put in one quart of M1 0W-40 and the noise was MUCH quieter. About as quiet as it is now. I don't know whether it's the viscosity, the moly, some other additive, etc. But it is an interesting experiment.
 
Hey Jason
Past oil experience with the K24 in the 05 Accord

0-101,000 miles my own syn blend of 3 qts GTX & 1.5 qt Syntec both 5-20. Seemed to bet he quietest blend I've used, but also the dirtiest in terms of smut visible thru the fill opening

102,000-140,000 miles my own syn blend of 3.5 qts PYB & 1.5 qt PP both 5-30 not as quiet as the GTX

140,000-177,000 miles either straight PYB in the summer or straight PP in the winter both 30 weights. No more syn blending. The PP seems to be the loudest cold & hot, PYB much quieter.

177,000-182,000 QSUD 5-30-clatter turned into a different sound, a quieter but more constant than a ticking when cold-I do not particularly care for this oil in this car, but I've got at least 25 quarts of it. It has started to clean the Castrol smut left in the valve cover. I would say my under my vc is about, or just slightly better than the way your's looks today

You can hear a cold 4 cyl Honda start in a cold parking lot from 100 yards away, so in the end I would think we'll never solve the cold clatter with different oils, but PYB has worked best,----- the higher cST when cold does not impress. The PYB 5-30 is almost as thick as PYB 10-30. When the new PZL Blend goes on special I'll probably pick up an oil change worth, just to try it
Thanks again for the pics, and the description of how the second intake valve mechanism works, I never knew about the 2200 rpm switch over
Steve
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I understand the SM version of Mobil 1's AFE wasn't as quiet as the newer SN version of it. Many folks have commented on how quiet their engines are on the SN AFE. I haven't used the SM version, so I couldn't compare. I did run PYB 5W-20 directly before this run of M1 0W-30. Cold start was about the same (very good). The PYB was a little louder when warmed-up, though. That could be the difference in grade, though.

On a prior oil change, I had five quarts of PP 0W-20 in it, and as you know, the engine is awfully rattly on that oil. I drained one quart out and put in one quart of M1 0W-40 and the noise was MUCH quieter. About as quiet as it is now. I don't know whether it's the viscosity, the moly, some other additive, etc. But it is an interesting experiment.


I ran many OCIs with both SM and SN M1 0-20(probably more than most any other Bitoger). Saw no differance in performance between the two at 10K OCIs.
 
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Has anyone here compared the sound level with Honda oil?
It seems that the sound is from the cams and rockers until the valves heat up and the gap closes. A side effect of not having hydraulic lash adjusters. If this is the case, thicker oil may help quiet the sound, but what is the downside elsewhere, and are there any reason the sound should be a concern other than a nuisance?
 
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