If you are referring to Amsoil's ATL fluid, it is not just recommended for WS - it's also for Mercon LV and SP, Honda DW-1, GM Dexron VI, and Nissan Matic-S.
Toyota WS fluid
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I think the vehicles that is designed for WS has a different programming of the clutch and torque converter engagement that doesn't stress the fluid as much as before, and therefore can extend the life even with a lesser fluid.
So, the old T-IV may last 30k and the WS lasting 90k may not be because WS is better. If T-IV has a lower viscosity it too may last 90k like WS in this application. I've read somewhere here that WS is just a lighter T-IV.
My main concern about using a different fluid is not if they are better or worse, but if their friction profile is identical or at least similar enough that the transmission can work well with it. Without seeing a clutch pack / transmission dyno chart of different fluid I think we can only put faith in the vendor of the fluid.
To be honest, Redline's recommendation change from D6 to D4 for WS substitute scares the heck out of me. If Redline couldn't get that right the first time, what about others?
I just recently researched this and T-IV and WS appear to have the same additive package.
D6 has different additive pack, no calcium sulfonate, and calcium sulfonate is very important to protect plastic parts from oxidation in AT.
I know that some people use D6 instead of WS, but I would not do it.
I think the vehicles that is designed for WS has a different programming of the clutch and torque converter engagement that doesn't stress the fluid as much as before, and therefore can extend the life even with a lesser fluid.
So, the old T-IV may last 30k and the WS lasting 90k may not be because WS is better. If T-IV has a lower viscosity it too may last 90k like WS in this application. I've read somewhere here that WS is just a lighter T-IV.
My main concern about using a different fluid is not if they are better or worse, but if their friction profile is identical or at least similar enough that the transmission can work well with it. Without seeing a clutch pack / transmission dyno chart of different fluid I think we can only put faith in the vendor of the fluid.
To be honest, Redline's recommendation change from D6 to D4 for WS substitute scares the heck out of me. If Redline couldn't get that right the first time, what about others?
I just recently researched this and T-IV and WS appear to have the same additive package.
D6 has different additive pack, no calcium sulfonate, and calcium sulfonate is very important to protect plastic parts from oxidation in AT.
I know that some people use D6 instead of WS, but I would not do it.
Lots of talk about WS over at Priuschat as its used in the Prius. I have a Prius and it uses WS.
I have been running Redline D6 for about 50,000 miles and the trans is so quiet its spooky.
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent.Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly.100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
Redline makes high performance oil for engines & transmissions.Redline.com
And no I wouldn't leave WS in for 100K. Testing over at PC shows its getting bad at about 60.
I have been running Redline D6 for about 50,000 miles and the trans is so quiet its spooky.
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent.Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly.100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
Redline makes high performance oil for engines & transmissions.Redline.com
And no I wouldn't leave WS in for 100K. Testing over at PC shows its getting bad at about 60.
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Calcium is used to reduce TAN. Its acid thats attacks plastic. Its in there to help make WS a "lifetime" fluid. But its also a wear agent.
I prefer to go with a pure base stock with no additives whatsover and a high performance OCI.
No wear and get it out before the tan starts to change. A UOA will quickly tell you when that's happening.
I prefer to go with a pure base stock with no additives whatsover and a high performance OCI.
No wear and get it out before the tan starts to change. A UOA will quickly tell you when that's happening.
Originally Posted By: Raybo
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent. Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly. 100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
Red Line D4/D6 is great stuff for sure. The D4 is a won't-shear-below 7cSt fluid and the D6 is a 6cSt (info from Red Line). This makes D4 much thicker than any OEM fluid out there and D6 is just right (likely a touch thicker than most). Also, the cold-temp performance on these is completely unmatched last I checked.
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent. Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly. 100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
Red Line D4/D6 is great stuff for sure. The D4 is a won't-shear-below 7cSt fluid and the D6 is a 6cSt (info from Red Line). This makes D4 much thicker than any OEM fluid out there and D6 is just right (likely a touch thicker than most). Also, the cold-temp performance on these is completely unmatched last I checked.
Originally Posted By: btanchors
If you are referring to Amsoil's ATL fluid, it is not just recommended for WS - it's also for Mercon LV and SP, Honda DW-1, GM Dexron VI, and Nissan Matic-S.
Yes--- that's it. not the "Synthetic Multi-Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid" but the "Synthetic Fuel Efficient Automatic Transmission Fluid". those others listed are also lower vis. I hadn't paid attn to the other listings--- you are right-- I was focused on the WS spec.
If you are referring to Amsoil's ATL fluid, it is not just recommended for WS - it's also for Mercon LV and SP, Honda DW-1, GM Dexron VI, and Nissan Matic-S.
Yes--- that's it. not the "Synthetic Multi-Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid" but the "Synthetic Fuel Efficient Automatic Transmission Fluid". those others listed are also lower vis. I hadn't paid attn to the other listings--- you are right-- I was focused on the WS spec.
Although some dealers put in whatever they want for price or politics, I would not judge them just for that statement.
The list I posted earlier covers the WS, but as of about April of last year, when the additive supplier made some changes. Up until then that product covered the rest of that list, but not WS. As there was no WS in this market by any brand, most Toyota people used the normal "Universal" like what I list below. But the Toyota dealer (owner is a cheapskate, cheat, etc.) used mineral Dexron III. Argument was no transmission failed during the warranty period.
But I have another synthetic that covers most of the rest. The additive companies do the testing and the approval of the base that they can stand behind. They spend a lot of time and money trying to come up with common with formulations that simplify the supply chain while giving the required performance.
Aisin Warner AW-1
Allison C-4
Allison TES-295
Audi G 0`52 162
Audi G 052 990
Audi G 055 025
BMW 7045E
BMW LA2634
BMW LT 71141
Chrysler ATF+2, ATF+3, ATF+4
Chrysler Mopar AS68RC
DEXRON®
DEXRON®-II, IID, IIE
DEXRON®-IIIF, IIIG
DEXRON®-IIIH
Esso LT 71141
Ford FNR5
Ford MERCON®
Ford MERCON® V
Honda ATF-Z1
Hyundai NWS-9638
Hyundai SP-II & SP-III
Hyundai SPH-IV
Idemitsu K17
JASO 1-A
JWS 3309
JWS 3324
Kia SP-II & SP-III
MAN 339 V1, V2
MAN 339 Z1, Z2
MAN 339F
Mazda ATF-M III
Mazda ATF-MV
Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.3, 236.5, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9, 236.10, 236.11
Mitsubishi ATF J2
Mitsubishi SP-II, SP-III
Nissan 402
Nissan Matic-D, J, K
Nissan Matic-S
Shell 3403
Shell LA2634
Subaru ATF, ATF-HP
Suzuki 3317
Texaco ETL-7045E
Texaco ETL-8072B
Texaco N402
Toyota T-III & T-IV
Toyota WS (JWS 3324)
Voith 55.6335.XX (G607)
Voith 55.6336.XX (G1363)
Volvo 97340
Volvo 97341
Volvo (auto) (4 sp, 6 sp)
VW G 052 162
VW G 052 990
VW G 055 025
ZF TE-ML 03D, 04D, 05L, 09, 11B, 14A, 16L, 17C
ZF TE-ML 14B
The list I posted earlier covers the WS, but as of about April of last year, when the additive supplier made some changes. Up until then that product covered the rest of that list, but not WS. As there was no WS in this market by any brand, most Toyota people used the normal "Universal" like what I list below. But the Toyota dealer (owner is a cheapskate, cheat, etc.) used mineral Dexron III. Argument was no transmission failed during the warranty period.
But I have another synthetic that covers most of the rest. The additive companies do the testing and the approval of the base that they can stand behind. They spend a lot of time and money trying to come up with common with formulations that simplify the supply chain while giving the required performance.
Aisin Warner AW-1
Allison C-4
Allison TES-295
Audi G 0`52 162
Audi G 052 990
Audi G 055 025
BMW 7045E
BMW LA2634
BMW LT 71141
Chrysler ATF+2, ATF+3, ATF+4
Chrysler Mopar AS68RC
DEXRON®
DEXRON®-II, IID, IIE
DEXRON®-IIIF, IIIG
DEXRON®-IIIH
Esso LT 71141
Ford FNR5
Ford MERCON®
Ford MERCON® V
Honda ATF-Z1
Hyundai NWS-9638
Hyundai SP-II & SP-III
Hyundai SPH-IV
Idemitsu K17
JASO 1-A
JWS 3309
JWS 3324
Kia SP-II & SP-III
MAN 339 V1, V2
MAN 339 Z1, Z2
MAN 339F
Mazda ATF-M III
Mazda ATF-MV
Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.3, 236.5, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9, 236.10, 236.11
Mitsubishi ATF J2
Mitsubishi SP-II, SP-III
Nissan 402
Nissan Matic-D, J, K
Nissan Matic-S
Shell 3403
Shell LA2634
Subaru ATF, ATF-HP
Suzuki 3317
Texaco ETL-7045E
Texaco ETL-8072B
Texaco N402
Toyota T-III & T-IV
Toyota WS (JWS 3324)
Voith 55.6335.XX (G607)
Voith 55.6336.XX (G1363)
Volvo 97340
Volvo 97341
Volvo (auto) (4 sp, 6 sp)
VW G 052 162
VW G 052 990
VW G 055 025
ZF TE-ML 03D, 04D, 05L, 09, 11B, 14A, 16L, 17C
ZF TE-ML 14B
Originally Posted By: Raybo
Lots of talk about WS over at Priuschat as its used in the Prius. I have a Prius and it uses WS.
I have been running Redline D6 for about 50,000 miles and the trans is so quiet its spooky.
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent.Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly.100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
UOA doesn't tell you how plastics or electric windings are doing. It may or may not be superior. I don't see any objective data provided.
If Redline is telling us D6 is not good enough as WS replacement, I would listen.
Lots of talk about WS over at Priuschat as its used in the Prius. I have a Prius and it uses WS.
I have been running Redline D6 for about 50,000 miles and the trans is so quiet its spooky.
I pulled a UOA on it from Wearcheck and doing excellent.Redline D6 is 100% Pure ester base poly.100% synthetic. Superior to WS.
UOA doesn't tell you how plastics or electric windings are doing. It may or may not be superior. I don't see any objective data provided.
If Redline is telling us D6 is not good enough as WS replacement, I would listen.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
If Redline is telling us D6 is not good enough as WS replacement, I would listen.
I doubt that 'good enough' is an accurate way to describe it. If there is an issue with D6 in WS applications it's not going to be temperature/viscosity/shear/wear related (D6 is top-notch here). The only thing that makes sense is the specific clutch-material friction-modifiers used in WS are different from DexVI applications (enough to be noticed). So it's possible that in some WS applications there may be a change in clutch-engagement behaviour.
There are many fluids available that list WS, DW-1, LV and DexVI coverage. Would appreciate if anyone can shed light on the specifics of the Toyota WS spec.
If Redline is telling us D6 is not good enough as WS replacement, I would listen.
I doubt that 'good enough' is an accurate way to describe it. If there is an issue with D6 in WS applications it's not going to be temperature/viscosity/shear/wear related (D6 is top-notch here). The only thing that makes sense is the specific clutch-material friction-modifiers used in WS are different from DexVI applications (enough to be noticed). So it's possible that in some WS applications there may be a change in clutch-engagement behaviour.
There are many fluids available that list WS, DW-1, LV and DexVI coverage. Would appreciate if anyone can shed light on the specifics of the Toyota WS spec.
Yes, there is.
Eneos ECO-ATF
I paid $5/qt at my NAPA Auto Parts store in San Jose, CA. I don't know why more people don't know about it.
Eneos ECO-ATF
I paid $5/qt at my NAPA Auto Parts store in San Jose, CA. I don't know why more people don't know about it.
You and I have already gone around on this over at PC.
WS has a calcium additive pack used to mitigate TAN. TAN is what attacks plastics. Thats why its called a Lifetime fluid. Problem is calcium has its own wear component.
D6 and D4 are 100% ester base stock. No additives. My UOA on a Prius after 30K miles showed the TAN was starting to rise. Time for it to be replaced. So its a trade off.
D6 with no metal wear but needs to be replaced as it has no TAN mitigation or WS that has TAN abating property's but high metal wear.
I go for the low metal wear with high performance OCI. Its not alot of money and after 200,000 miles I'll have a transmission with alot less wear on it than a lifetime of WS.
WS has a calcium additive pack used to mitigate TAN. TAN is what attacks plastics. Thats why its called a Lifetime fluid. Problem is calcium has its own wear component.
D6 and D4 are 100% ester base stock. No additives. My UOA on a Prius after 30K miles showed the TAN was starting to rise. Time for it to be replaced. So its a trade off.
D6 with no metal wear but needs to be replaced as it has no TAN mitigation or WS that has TAN abating property's but high metal wear.
I go for the low metal wear with high performance OCI. Its not alot of money and after 200,000 miles I'll have a transmission with alot less wear on it than a lifetime of WS.
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
The WS fluid is nothing special.
KV 100C just below 6cSt
BV -40C about 8500cP
20 hour KRL shear 10% vis loss
FZG a/8.3/90 9 LS
Foam
Seq I 30/0
Seq II 40/0
Seq III 20/0
Seq IV 30/0
The VM collapses massively under thermal stress.
Great thread! The time has come to change the ATF in my Toyota truck (5.7L w/6spd auto) and I would love to find a fluid that gives better wear protection and shift performance than the original WS fluid.
No matter what fluid I run it will never be in service for longer than 40k miles - I just can't wrap my head around the idea of a lifetime fill! The talk of Toyota WS not being synthetic has me worried. I tend not to trust low-priced factory fluids but on the flip side the synthetic Toyota 0W20 gets rave reviews.
Any experience or comments on Amsoil ATL or Redline D6 ATF?
The WS fluid is nothing special.
KV 100C just below 6cSt
BV -40C about 8500cP
20 hour KRL shear 10% vis loss
FZG a/8.3/90 9 LS
Foam
Seq I 30/0
Seq II 40/0
Seq III 20/0
Seq IV 30/0
The VM collapses massively under thermal stress.
Great thread! The time has come to change the ATF in my Toyota truck (5.7L w/6spd auto) and I would love to find a fluid that gives better wear protection and shift performance than the original WS fluid.
No matter what fluid I run it will never be in service for longer than 40k miles - I just can't wrap my head around the idea of a lifetime fill! The talk of Toyota WS not being synthetic has me worried. I tend not to trust low-priced factory fluids but on the flip side the synthetic Toyota 0W20 gets rave reviews.
Any experience or comments on Amsoil ATL or Redline D6 ATF?
I have the amsoil in the tundra, and it shifts flawlessly. just snicks into gear. no flare. no clunk. no drama.
NOTE--- this is the newer amsoil formulation, labeled Low Viscosity. I believe it's this: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/t.../?code=OTLQT-EA
the older universal synthetics work--- mine came with dealer installed BG synthetic universal, but it banged into each gear a bit more like a honda civic, and the shifts actually seemed a bit more cumbersome. The low VI amsoil stuff was a marked improvement over the BG universal.
NOTE--- this is the newer amsoil formulation, labeled Low Viscosity. I believe it's this: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/t.../?code=OTLQT-EA
the older universal synthetics work--- mine came with dealer installed BG synthetic universal, but it banged into each gear a bit more like a honda civic, and the shifts actually seemed a bit more cumbersome. The low VI amsoil stuff was a marked improvement over the BG universal.
I recently dropped AT pan an a Yaris with 66,000 miles and factory WS ATF (2007). Very little on the magnets and little dirt in the pan. The fluid darker than normal, but still red.
Very different picture compared to my old Corolla with T-IV ATF where I did drain and refill at 30,000 and dropped a pan at 60,000 miles. Lots of dirt in the pan.
Granted, different cars, different trannies, but at least in Yaris, WS ATF should be good for at least 100,000 miles.
Very different picture compared to my old Corolla with T-IV ATF where I did drain and refill at 30,000 and dropped a pan at 60,000 miles. Lots of dirt in the pan.
Granted, different cars, different trannies, but at least in Yaris, WS ATF should be good for at least 100,000 miles.
I'm debating whether to run an aftermarket fluid in my bro's 04 Lexus LS430. It's a six-speed auto unique to this model so I can't find anyone running a different fluid in this unit. It has 86,000mi on the unit and people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
Do you know something about this product that the rest of us don't?
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
Do you know something about this product that the rest of us don't?
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
Do you know something about this product that the rest of us don't?
Toyota WS ATF is also known as JWS3324 and NWS9638.
According to http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=1683
Quote:
In reading TSB 08-AT-005 which is for the V6 Sedan (Aisin), it uses the NWS 9638 Full Synthetic "T-5" ATF, which can also be purchased at Toyota and Lexus Dealers.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
people saying WS is a non-synthetic makes me worried that its overdue.
That's simply not true about the synthetic part.
Do you know something about this product that the rest of us don't?
Toyota WS ATF is also known as JWS3324 and NWS9638.
According to http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=1683
Quote:
In reading TSB 08-AT-005 which is for the V6 Sedan (Aisin), it uses the NWS 9638 Full Synthetic "T-5" ATF, which can also be purchased at Toyota and Lexus Dealers.
Here is directly from Hyundai stating NWS9638 is synthetic:
http://www.myhyundaiforums.com/TSB/xml/08-AT-005.swf
Here is info from Toyota stating WS is NWS9638:
http://www.myhyundaiforums.com/TSB/xml/08-AT-005.swf
Here is info from Toyota stating WS is NWS9638:
That's some good new info, although I'm still wary that Toyota doesn't label it synthetic anywhere.
In any case, I still think Maxlife is a great WS substitute. In some cases, it's half the cost of WS, labeled synthetic, the correct viscosity, and most of all I didn't have to deal with the awful Toyota dealers near me.
In any case, I still think Maxlife is a great WS substitute. In some cases, it's half the cost of WS, labeled synthetic, the correct viscosity, and most of all I didn't have to deal with the awful Toyota dealers near me.
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