Antiseize - Copper vs Nickle

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I have both, and both work. I haven't had any problems with either one. I've had the Ni neverseize for 30 years; got it before neverseize was popularly available. It started running low, so I recently bought the Permatex blend at the local store. I think it's formulated as an all-around neverseize for nearly all DIY applications.

BTW, I appreciate Shannow's post on the pitfalls with copper antiseize - very informative.
 
JHZR,

Ceramlub is a high solids brake lube paste. I talked to the owner of GWR company: http://www.ceramlub.com/ and he "said" this Swiss made product is also supplied to Bendix: http://www.bendixbrakes.com/products/flash/otherPremium/otherPremium0.swf
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In my Caravan, the GWR Ceramlub dried up in the booted pins = fail.....for me. I have gone back to old school Silglyde or silicone for brakes.

Regarding antiseize, I talked to Permatex, but unfortunately I cannot find my notes. From my perspective, if one throws out all the exotic antiseizes, there are 3 basic types commonly available: Silver (copper/alumimum/graphite), copper, and Nickel.

From recollection, I remember him telling me:

- For vehicle use, all 3 can be used interchangeably.
- Copper has slightly higher temp. and conductivity (don't use copper near ABS sensors??)
- Nickel works "best", BUT is probably overkill ($$)for general use.

Again, best I can remember. Comments/disagreement welcome....someone else please call and report back!

EDIT: Contrary to Dantheman80's account of dielectric corrosion, Permatex states that their copper product is best for ALUMINUM heads! http://www.permatex.com/products/product...ubricant-detail click TDS
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This over abundant info gives me headaches.
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Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I have both, and both work. I haven't had any problems with either one. I've had the Ni neverseize for 30 years; got it before neverseize was popularly available. It started running low, so I recently bought the Permatex blend at the local store. I think it's formulated as an all-around neverseize for nearly all DIY applications.

BTW, I appreciate Shannow's post on the pitfalls with copper antiseize - very informative.

Kestas, no problems, it's probably not a real issue to the back-yard Joe, but stainless is a cow of a material, and lower melting point metals and high temperature components are bad news.
 
Quote:
Ceramlub is a high solids brake lube paste. I talked to the owner of GWR company: http://www.ceramlub.com/ and he "said" this Swiss made product is also supplied to Bendix: http://www.bendixbrakes.com/products/flash/otherPremium/otherPremium0.swf shrug

In my Caravan, the GWR Ceramlub dried up in the booted pins = fail.....for me. I have gone back to old school Silglyde or silicone for brakes.


Just so that you are aware:
Quote:
Only a thin layer of this high pressure-resistant, dry-film, boundary lubricant is needed to
fill surface roughness.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGsQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bendixbrakes.com%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F4_Lubrication_Tip.pdf&ei=000iUbnJFcqu2gWc1IH4CA&usg=AFQjCNG9wxnpoe_rqoo5mHD0U7Yy-BC6sQ&bvm=bv.42553238,d.b2I&cad=rja

I did a lot of research into this product some time ago and it seems to be a ceramic anti-seize out Europe that is also sold as a brake lube. The jar I use is by Bendix, but I don't believe there is any difference.

I like to use it on the wheel / rotor surface as it seems to greatly reduce the corrosion there.
 
Tempest,

Your link refers to using the product on the weather exposed, metal to metal caliper/pad contact points as a lube and sound deadener.

It was recommended to me to also use this product on the enclosed caliper pins. That's where it failed for me by drying out and causing binding.

Everyone's experience and situation is different, but it did not live up to it's hype for me.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Tempest,

Your link refers to using the product on the weather exposed, metal to metal caliper/pad contact points as a lube and sound deadener.

It was recommended to me to also use this product on the enclosed caliper pins. That's where it failed for me by drying out and causing binding.

Everyone's experience and situation is different, but it did not live up to it's hype for me.

No problem. I've used it on pins without issues but as you say, every condition is different. It's always good for people to relate their experiences here.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself

It was recommended to me to also use this product on the enclosed caliper pins. That's where it failed for me by drying out and causing binding.


If it's that blue stuff, then yes, it's no good on slider pins - dries and gets sticky. Back to copper for me, but will use that blue stuff on the pads.
 
when you purchase new quality O2 sensor, it comes with copper anti-seize and I think O2 sensors get very hot.
 
Originally Posted By: Silk

If it's that blue stuff, then yes, it's no good on slider pins - dries and gets sticky. Back to copper for me, but will use that blue stuff on the pads.


Ceramlub is sort of a pink color out of the jar. It dries white after it's been on brake parts for a while.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
when you purchase new quality O2 sensor, it comes with copper anti-seize and I think O2 sensors get very hot.
And often screw into cast iron or steel manifolds.. Denso gives you a little packet of copper stuff.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
...............................
Regarding antiseize, I talked to Permatex, but unfortunately I cannot find my notes. From my perspective, if one throws out all the exotic antiseizes, there are 3 basic types commonly available: Silver (copper/alumimum/graphite), copper, and Nickel.

From recollection, I remember him telling me:

- For vehicle use, all 3 can be used interchangeably.
- Copper has slightly higher temp. and conductivity (don't use copper near ABS sensors??)
- Nickel works "best", BUT is probably overkill ($$)for general use.

Again, best I can remember. Comments/disagreement welcome....someone else please call and report back!

EDIT: Contrary to Dantheman80's account of dielectric corrosion, Permatex states that their copper product is best for ALUMINUM heads! http://www.permatex.com/products/product...ubricant-detail click TDS
21.gif
21.gif


This over abundant info gives me headaches.
33.gif
33.gif
33.gif
33.gif



For spark plugs in aluminum heads, I use this aluminum/copper/graphite Permatex A-S:
http://www.permatex.com/products/product...ubricant-detail

"........Suggested Applications: For easy removal of spark plugs, cylinder head and exhaust head bolts; apply to anchor pins on brake assemblies, u-bolts and spring bolts, hinges, gears, chain, sprockets and rollers..."


For suspension and undercarriage bolts that are exposed to water spray and deicer chemicals, I use the Loctite Marine Anti-Seize.
http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797882515457
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself


EDIT: Contrary to Dantheman80's account of dielectric corrosion, Permatex states that their copper product is best for ALUMINUM heads! http://www.permatex.com/products/product...ubricant-detail click TDS
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Peratex also states to reassemble with normal torque, which I disagree with. Torque must be reduced when using anti seize on applications where it is not specifically called for like spark plugs and lug nuts. Cut and paste below from your link.

TYPICAL APPLICATIONS
• Spark plug threads installed into aluminum heads
• Exhaust manifold and engine bolts
• Oxygen sensors
• Knock sensors
• Thermostat housing bolts
• Fuel filter fittings
• Battery cable connections
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
1. Clean mating surfaces before application.
2. For best results, apply to clean, dry surfaces.
3. Clean surfaces with Permatex Brake & Parts Cleaner.
4. Wire brush any loose surface rust.
5 Apply Copper Anti-Seize to the parts that require
protection.
6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values.
7. Wipe off excess material.
For Cleanup
1. Clean parts with disposable towel.
2. Clean hands with Permatex brand hand cleaners.
 
^^ Definitely bad advice from Permatex. The Loctite TDS sheets I have looked at provide torque guidelines for their anti-seizes.
 
My question arises when youre dealing with older, dirtier stuff where the threads may have some surface rust, coatings may not be as good as original, etc. The added surface roughness will make the torque higher with a lower clamping force. In that situation, the added torque may be beneficial from the AS.

Just speculating...

I like the idea of torquing dry, marking the alignment, putting the AS on and then torquing back to that point.

I have to imagine that if the rule of thumb is, say 20%, that the fasteners have far more capability for torque than just a 20% overage... FWIW. Doesnt make it good to overtorque...
 
I'm a big fan in specific strain tightening...nothing defines clamping load any better than actual strain.
 
Sure, and you measure that how?

If you have a very well defined material for the bolt then you can calculate the strain via the length, or with an ultrasonic device. Or are you suggesting you mount a strain gauge on the bolt?

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm a big fan in specific strain tightening...nothing defines clamping load any better than actual strain.
 
Nope, we use angle of rotation mostly.

progressively crush the gasket, then back each nut off, tighten snug (200ftlb usually on the big stuff) and rotate it by 360*stretch/pitch

The big stuff (over 2.5" diameter) has holes down the middle to allow the bolt to be heated to allow the angle to be achieved. Other areas we use hydraulic jacks to apply the clamp load, then snug the nut down and remove the jack.

Automotive, I prefer angle of rotation (and actually TTY doesn't do a bad job either.
 
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