Hi gang, I'm a little curious about antiseize
and when to use the copper vs nickle types.
Is one 'better' than the other?
Thanks,
TLR
and when to use the copper vs nickle types.
Is one 'better' than the other?
Thanks,
TLR
Antiseize - Copper vs Nickle
- Thread starter TheLoneRanger
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I've always used nickel because of it's temp vs copper.
Originally Posted By: TheLoneRanger
Hi gang, I'm a little curious about antiseize
and when to use the copper vs nickle types.
Nickel anti-seize is meant for stainless steel. Outside of stainless steel, I'm not sure one is "better" than the other. Price would be a better predictor of quality than the type of metal used: more expensive anti-seizes will have a greater metal content.
For non-stainless-steel, I'd use a copper paste.
Hi gang, I'm a little curious about antiseize
and when to use the copper vs nickle types.
Nickel anti-seize is meant for stainless steel. Outside of stainless steel, I'm not sure one is "better" than the other. Price would be a better predictor of quality than the type of metal used: more expensive anti-seizes will have a greater metal content.
For non-stainless-steel, I'd use a copper paste.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Application ?
on components that see over 250-300C, I wouldn't use copper.
According to Google, copper melts at 1,984°F (1,085°C) I'd have no problem using it at 250-300C.
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
Application ?
on components that see over 250-300C, I wouldn't use copper.
According to Google, copper melts at 1,984°F (1,085°C) I'd have no problem using it at 250-300C.
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
I always wondered at the difference. For me I trust the copper anti-seize, would never touch the nickel due to no experience with it.
I only anti-seize plugs after they were inspected and put back, and torqued down less.
New plugs I don't put any if I am using NGK as they come coated so they don't stick in an aluminum head.
I only anti-seize plugs after they were inspected and put back, and torqued down less.
New plugs I don't put any if I am using NGK as they come coated so they don't stick in an aluminum head.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
There's a little more to science than simplistic "copper melts at", and "my 300C" isn't really "mine" but determined by metallurgists.
There's an actual science to picking anti-siezes
http://depacproducts.net/anti.html
And 10 years of being turbine engineer in a Utility, where we have to make sure that things stay together at 1000F for 12 years, and then come apart easily, we have multiple products for multiple applications.
And we don't let copper anywhere near stuff that's over 300C, because it can cause cracking issues.
...thus why I asked for the application
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
There's a little more to science than simplistic "copper melts at", and "my 300C" isn't really "mine" but determined by metallurgists.
There's an actual science to picking anti-siezes
http://depacproducts.net/anti.html
And 10 years of being turbine engineer in a Utility, where we have to make sure that things stay together at 1000F for 12 years, and then come apart easily, we have multiple products for multiple applications.
And we don't let copper anywhere near stuff that's over 300C, because it can cause cracking issues.
...thus why I asked for the application
I used to us Wurth Cu800 and AL1100. The products should be self explanatory. These days I have no choice and just use copper.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tegger
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
There's a little more to science than simplistic "copper melts at", and "my 300C" isn't really "mine" but determined by metallurgists.
There's an actual science to picking anti-siezes
http://depacproducts.net/anti.html
And 10 years of being turbine engineer in a Utility, where we have to make sure that things stay together at 1000F for 12 years, and then come apart easily, we have multiple products for multiple applications.
And we don't let copper anywhere near stuff that's over 300C, because it can cause cracking issues.
...thus why I asked for the application
Nice link! seems like nickel is the best all around anti-seize... unless you have a specific/unusal application.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
I see that Loctite's copper anti-seize is good to 1,800F, well above your 300C (572F).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE...p;cm_vc=IDPRRZ1
I see that Loctite also sells a hi-temp anti-seize that's good to 2,000F. It is non-metallic.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTITE-Anti-Seize-Compound-3KE65
There's a little more to science than simplistic "copper melts at", and "my 300C" isn't really "mine" but determined by metallurgists.
There's an actual science to picking anti-siezes
http://depacproducts.net/anti.html
And 10 years of being turbine engineer in a Utility, where we have to make sure that things stay together at 1000F for 12 years, and then come apart easily, we have multiple products for multiple applications.
And we don't let copper anywhere near stuff that's over 300C, because it can cause cracking issues.
...thus why I asked for the application
Nice link! seems like nickel is the best all around anti-seize... unless you have a specific/unusal application.
JHZR2
Staff member
So what is the best way to apply anti seize and what is the optimal coating thickness? Get it on all the threads all the way around? Just a few of the first threads all the way around? Just a few threads and it doesnt matter?
If I use it on something at work I paint a stripe down one side quickly and run it in.
On spark plugs that I pull to inspect I paint the whole thread surface thinly and evenly, but VERY carefully. If it is too messy I take a rag and carefully clean it up and sometimes even redo it.
New spark plugs I don't put any but i am rethinking that one.
Stuff that I know is going to be a big problem, such as Volkswagen hubs, I paint on very carefully and evenly after cleaning the surface with a die grinder with a brush attachment.
The lugs on VW get painted with antiseize too as they are like a big 17mm screw that holds the wheels on. In the rust belt sometimes you can't get them off with an impact if they are allowed to seize in place.
If I worked at VW, BMW, or Mercedes, I'd use a lot of the stuff and all the time to make everyone's life easier.
On spark plugs that I pull to inspect I paint the whole thread surface thinly and evenly, but VERY carefully. If it is too messy I take a rag and carefully clean it up and sometimes even redo it.
New spark plugs I don't put any but i am rethinking that one.
Stuff that I know is going to be a big problem, such as Volkswagen hubs, I paint on very carefully and evenly after cleaning the surface with a die grinder with a brush attachment.
The lugs on VW get painted with antiseize too as they are like a big 17mm screw that holds the wheels on. In the rust belt sometimes you can't get them off with an impact if they are allowed to seize in place.
If I worked at VW, BMW, or Mercedes, I'd use a lot of the stuff and all the time to make everyone's life easier.
Last edited:
Never-Sneez has their "Mariner's Choice" with superior corrosion resistance around salt water.
To coat lugs or not......If you do, you have to reduce the torque setting (unless the car makes says to lube them). Using torque to limit tightening is actually measuring the twisting force, of course. This is a combination of the friction of the threads, the friction of the face of the nut, and the compression of the parts being tightened. If you lube with antiseize or anything else you've change the friction. The torque setting needs to be reduced to avoid stretching or stripping the threads.
To coat lugs or not......If you do, you have to reduce the torque setting (unless the car makes says to lube them). Using torque to limit tightening is actually measuring the twisting force, of course. This is a combination of the friction of the threads, the friction of the face of the nut, and the compression of the parts being tightened. If you lube with antiseize or anything else you've change the friction. The torque setting needs to be reduced to avoid stretching or stripping the threads.
FWIW Champion sells spark plug anti-seize for aviation that is graphite based.
http://www.championaerospace.com/products/tools/2612-spark-plug-thread-lubricant/
http://site.skygeek.com/MSDS/ideal-2612-msds.pdf
http://www.championaerospace.com/products/tools/2612-spark-plug-thread-lubricant/
http://site.skygeek.com/MSDS/ideal-2612-msds.pdf
Here is what I have more-or-less learned about anti-seize as related to spark plug threads:
On aluminum heads, use aluminum-based anti-seize (sparingly on zinc-plated threads, a little more generously on non-plated threads). Although NGK recommends against using anti-seize on their plugs, I would probably do it anyway. Avoid using copper-based anti seize on aluminum heads since it can promote galvanic corrosion of the aluminum.
On iron heads, the use of metallic anti-seize is not typically recommended. I used copper-based anti-seize on iron heads for years, but I've since heard that can cause galvanic corrosion to the iron... I never had a problem though. The use of aluminum anti-seize on iron threads is not recommended because it will cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminum base itself and might make it more difficult to remove since the aluminum metal will have corroded into a white aluminum oxide.
Nickel anti-seize is uncommon on automotive applications since it is meant primarily for use on stainless steel.
I usually keep aluminum and copper anti-seize on hand but I find that I don't use the copper very often.
Take this for what it's worth, but I'm a chemist, not a metallurgist, so YMMV.
On aluminum heads, use aluminum-based anti-seize (sparingly on zinc-plated threads, a little more generously on non-plated threads). Although NGK recommends against using anti-seize on their plugs, I would probably do it anyway. Avoid using copper-based anti seize on aluminum heads since it can promote galvanic corrosion of the aluminum.
On iron heads, the use of metallic anti-seize is not typically recommended. I used copper-based anti-seize on iron heads for years, but I've since heard that can cause galvanic corrosion to the iron... I never had a problem though. The use of aluminum anti-seize on iron threads is not recommended because it will cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminum base itself and might make it more difficult to remove since the aluminum metal will have corroded into a white aluminum oxide.
Nickel anti-seize is uncommon on automotive applications since it is meant primarily for use on stainless steel.
I usually keep aluminum and copper anti-seize on hand but I find that I don't use the copper very often.
Take this for what it's worth, but I'm a chemist, not a metallurgist, so YMMV.
I've been using Ceramlub as an anti-seize on spark plugs and things without issue.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Tempest
I've been using Ceramlub as an anti-seize on spark plugs and things without issue.
Have a link for this product?
I've been using Ceramlub as an anti-seize on spark plugs and things without issue.
Have a link for this product?
JHZR2
Staff member
My read on all this is that a Ni antiseize is the best bet if you can get it, as it doesn't have any real incompatibility issues.
JHZR2
Staff member
So this one is interesting in that it is a mix of Cu and Al... Thoughts???
Amazon Permatex
The Nickel is obviously a lot more
Permatex Ni
Is permatex, loctite of CRC really all that different in terms of quality? Ive not seen metals loading values.
Amazon Permatex
The Nickel is obviously a lot more
Permatex Ni
Is permatex, loctite of CRC really all that different in terms of quality? Ive not seen metals loading values.
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