Rant on Centric Premium Rotors the 120-series

[ChrisW]

This is just a rant on my recent experience with Centric Premium [120 series] rotors on my Mazda6.

About 25k miles ago, re-did the front rotors and pads with Centric premium 120-series rotors [these were cast in China bought from discount brake warehouse online as Amazon did not stock them at the time] and Bendix CT-3 brake pads [I used D1164 even though D1192 is listed as an acceptable part; only difference I saw in diagrams is that the 1192 has the brake wear squeal tab riveted on the backing plate]. Braking was vastly improved over the 'certified pre-owned from dealer' rotors and pads [which I'm not even sure were factory pads although it appeared that the pads were just slapped onto the factory original rotors based on the light grooving]; these previous brakes had semi-grooved/scored rotor faces, squealed, dusted, and had pad knock-back due to old hardware. They never had the correct bite and just in general did not brake well.

The new centric/bendix setup worked well at first; new hardware stopped the pad knock-back noise [which the dealer said is normal for mazdas, ha!] bite and pedal modulation was better and dust was better. About 15k into the setup, I had pulsations which I first noticed after driving in the foothills of the 50/Placerville area for a rafting trip; the long steep hills really put some heat on the brakes. At first I though it was just deposits or glazing, but subsequent bed-ins did not help. It started getting worse; braking at low speeds would produce a whole car grab and go effect with a constant pedal effort. Sometimes in the cold cold mornings braking felt like it should, no grab and go, and good bite at low speeds. It got to the point that braking from 60mph plus produced a prominent shake in the steering wheel and pulsation in the pedal; as the brakes got hotter, the pulsing got worse and more noticeable. At first I was fearing some weird EBD/ABS fault or a weird pad formulation incompatibility with the factory rear rotors/pads. I though EBD/ABS because of the grab and go effect at low speeds but once it started having a stronger effect at freeway speeds, I knew it was run-out.

So I check amazon for Raybestos Advanced Technology Rotors [part# 680404] which go for about $48 each. I saw two in warehouse deals for $22 each. Five minutes after putting into my cart, they drop to $10 each. I had $18 in amazon points, so for about $3.75 shipped [I have prime] I got a pair of like-new rotors! Could not pass that up! I was stoked and totally prepared to get some awful banged up rotors in the mail as Amazon does a terrible job shipping rotors. Sure enough, the Raybestos AT rotors arrive in the mail in banged up boxes, but the rotors were true and good. One of the two rotors appeared to have been dry fittted as the retaining screw taper had paint wear and there was a little bit of marks/scuffs on the inside rotor hat, however the rotor surface was not worn at all. Both looked new after washing with soap and warm water.

Installed the Raybestos AT rotors [One thing I noticed for this application is that Raybestos doesn't use the non-directional cross-hatch finish on the AT rotors whereas the PG line uses the cross-hatching] and reused the Bendix CT-3 pads [still in great shape and even wear] in the front after a thorough cleaning of the hubs with a wire cup, re-did the slide pins with sil-glyde and new rubber boots and pin bushing on the top pin only as the kit only came with one rubber pin bushing [I used CRC gray goop last time, which I have since learned is not really rubber safe, perhaps the old rubber pin bushing combined with teh CRC stuff caused the pins to bind up enough to cause what I was experiencing with the Centric rotors]. Calipers move a lot more freely with just the rubber bushing on the top pin; not going to order another full pin boot kit just to get two more slide pin rubber pieces.

I also did the rear brakes with CT-3 pads and napa/raybestos PG rear rotors [I did buy Centric premium rear rotors from amazon about a year ago but never installed them; come to find out that the terrible amazon shipping caused a dent/ding on the outer edge of one of the rotors in the pad contact path, of course only revealed after cleaning and prepping them]. Not going to get brand new rotors machined for this one dent and this effectively makes the other side unusable in my opinion as I'd want matched rotors. I think I'm just not going to buy rotors online anymore; the extra $10-$20 at Napa for their ultra-prem/Raybestos AT rotors is worth not having to deal with shipping damage. I was going to just order another Centric prem rear rotor, but it was the same cost on amazon for one rotors as a pair of new rotors at Napa [$19.99 each]. Granted, the PG/Napa-premium line doesn't have painted rotor hat like the ultra-prem and AT lineup, but I don't really care about that as the coating wears out eventually. A good true rotor is much more important to me than a painted rotor hat, in my opinion.

And my gosh, I actually have super smooth braking now, great bite, no noise at all, no pulsing no matter the speed, no more grab and go and low speed stops. I can't believe how much of a difference just the Raybestos AT rotors made and reusing the CT-3 pads; big believer in Raybestos AT rotors now. I haven't been a big fan of Centric prem rotors lately after getting vastly different castings one from China and one from Taiwan for a friend's IS250 I take care of [the Taiwan ones looked much better than the ones from China in that]. At least the Raybestos AT rotors have consistent castings and machining from the same place, China.

So overall, and to re-cap, I really like Raybestos AT rotor line-up now, not very happy with Centric rotors lately, I like the CT-3 pads very much and the pads feel even better with rotors that have no run-out. It's just really nice to have dead silent and super smooth braking with an ease of modulation and good dependable bite. I was ready to attribute the braking as normal with the Centric rotors and can't believe I got used to less than optimal braking. I was really stoked to get a pair of front rotors for less than $5 and even more stoked that it wasn't the pads causing problems as I was not looking forward to spending $65 on my other pad choice of Akebono ProACT.

 

[The Critic]

I just have to ask - did you use a 3M roloc disc or the 3M hub-cleaning kit to sand/grind the hub flange until it is sparkly clean?

Ever since i started doing that, I've had zero issues with run-out.

 

[ChrisW]

It was just a wire brush cup kit at Home Depot for $12. It came with a 2" cup, a 1" one, a 3" wheel, I couldn't quite get the sand-paper like flap wheel thing to fit in the crevices. I wasn't aware 3M made a hub cleaning kit? I'll have to check it out if it makes it easier than using a wire cup brush.

The thing about the rust is that I did clean off when I did the job with the Centric rotors and when I pulled them off anything left wasn't able to be felt as a 'raised' surface for lack of a better description. There was some rust but is was more dust like. I did take more time to clean the hubs again this time, so that may have been it. I did use a corded drill this time versus a cordless last time. I suppose if the pulsation occurs again, I can check the hubs for rust and clean 'em up and see if it goes away, then I can just attribute this problem to rust build up on hub. Or if I have time I can have the Centric rotors checked at a local shop.

I don't think I've ever pulled a rotor off where there wasn't any rust on the hub, certainly not to the point of how would that existing rust not have cause the original setup to have runout felt while braking. Then again in my particular situation, I really feel like it was the Centric rotors, and not hub rust or slide pin issues as the pads were wearing evenly inner/outboard and left/right side with no taper. In anycase, I'm just amazed on how much more pleasurable it is to drive the car when it has properly working brakes

 

[ron350]

ChrisW glad you brought up the bad CRC brake grease.
Don’t know about other car brands but this [censored] will swell and split GM brake pin boots.

 

[ChrisW]

That CRC stuff is garbage on slide pins and rubber boots. Probably the only thing I'd ever use it on is backing plates in between the shim [if the shims aren't already bonded]. The only reason I bought that big jar from autozone 8+ years ago is because I thought it was good back then and it was the only one in such a big jar back then. Napa has their branded 4oz tubes of Sil-Glyde for under $4 and it even has many more uses than the CRC stuff. For me, Sil-glyde all the way on slide pins unless I someday get my hands on the more expensive Dow-Corning silicone stuff.

 

[ChrisW]

I'm in the process of uploading some comparative pictures of the Taiwan/China Centric rotors I used on my GF's IS250 last year. This will show the varying and dismal consistency I've been getting with Centric lately. Will update thread accordingly.

 

[bdcardinal]

I bought some Centric rotors for my R car to be cheap. The 121 series for the front and 120 for the rear, last time I let my supplier pick rotors for me. I then ordered OEM Volvo rotors, and the difference is staggering. The Centric ones look like junk compared to the factory ones.

 

[ChrisW]

Click on the pictures to see the full picture on the imagechack site but it should be fairly clear even in the thumbs. If need be I can grab the bigger picture code and edit post. The paint on the Taiwan rotors was much more durable than the easily flaked China. Also, while the Taiwan appears to have rougher casting on the vanes, they actually weighed more due to thicker rotor faces. The China had visibly cleaner looking casting marks on the vanes. These are all pictures of the ones I got from Amazon on the rotors for the IS250, interesting enough, when I went to RMA both of them, they sent me another Taiwan/China in the shipment. So, I just pick and chose the Taiwan ones and sent the China ones back.

The ones that were for my Mazda6 I didn't take pictures of either the Centrics or the Raybestos AT, however, I can say that when I compared the brand new Raybestos AT rotors to the Centric, the Raybestos AT had thicker rotor faces and felt heavier.

China
Taiwan
Taiwan
China
Taiwan
Taiwan
Taiwan
Taiwan
Taiwan
China
China
China
China
China
China
China
Taiwan Left, China Right
Taiwan bottom, China top
China
Taiwan top, China bottom
Taiwan top, China bottom
China left, Taiwan right
China

 

[ChrisW]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
I bought some Centric rotors for my R car to be cheap. The 121 series for the front and 120 for the rear, last time I let my supplier pick rotors for me. I then ordered OEM Volvo rotors, and the difference is staggering. The Centric ones look like junk compared to the factory ones.


I'm sure the OEM Motorcraft-equivalent [probably the factory parts not the aftermarket motorcraft value ones] or Mazda part for my Mazda6 would have been better than the Raybestos AT, however, I don't think I could get a pair for less than the $5 I spend on the pair of Raybestos AT from Amazon

For now I'm completely satisfied and feel confident using Raybestos AT on any future brakes I do, with of course, exception to certain applications.

 

[JHZR2]

Wow, a pound difference from side to side? From a supposedly reputable company that in theory is doing high quality manufacturing in China??? LOL.

 

[mechanicx]

As far as I can tell Raybestos AT rotors are the best quality/price as far as aftermarket rotors go and they're just about all chinese now. ACDelco aftermarket line are similar. I think Wagner are ok too. All these other fancy pants aftermarket brands I have little use for.

That said, I don't fully trust any aftermarket china sourced (casted or machined) rotors. I always try to turn the OEM rotor if possible or just rerun the OE rotors and that's cheaper and better than any china rotor. Or I try to get OES if the price is anywhere reasonable.

There's a possiblity if the pulsation comes back you have hub run out and these AT rotors will eventually develop thickness variation through no fault of their own.

 

[stephen9666]

This just shows for the millionth time that Taiwanese stuff is generally better than Chinese stuff. That doesn't even account for the political/human rights reasons to buy Taiwanese over Chinese products, but I won't get into that.

I wonder if these are both made by Centric, or if a different company/companies supplied one or both?

I would definitely buy rotors from whoever supplies that Taiwanese rotor. It looks pretty darn good to me. The trouble is, if you order from Centric, you'll have no idea if you're getting Chinese or Taiwanese.

For my last brake job I went with Raybestos Pro, which is their mid-level grade. They're Chinese, but seem decent quality and they're working fine. I didn't measure runout when I installed them.

 

[ChrisW]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
...

I wonder if these are both made by Centric, or if a different company/companies supplied one or both?

I would definitely buy rotors from whoever supplies that Taiwanese rotor. It looks pretty darn good to me. The trouble is, if you order from Centric, you'll have no idea if you're getting Chinese or Taiwanese.

...


I'm pretty sure, but this just an assumption, that Centric marks the boxes with where the rotor was cast, and not necessarily where it was machined as I recall sometime back reading that Centric [or it could have been EBC] machines their rotors in the states or at least for the 120 premiums but maybe not the economy C-Tek line? I did order some additional Centric 120-premium rotors for a friend's '08 Corolla, and they were made in China and they matched. So really, there is no way to guarantee that both rotors, when ordered in pairs, will be cast in the same place. At least with the Raybestos AT rotors [and even for many of their PG lines I've come across], even though they are made in China, at least they match casting and machining and appear to be from same batches! The rear Centric 120-prem rotors that I ordered a year ago from Amazon for my Mazda6 [besides that one of 'em was dinged from shipping], while one was made in China and one in Taiwan, at least the castings matched except that the markings identifying the foundry/production date/code were different by a couple letters/numbers.

There was no way I'd ever put that initial shipment Amazon sent me on my GF's IS250, thank you to me for being OCD/anal about inspecting parts before using them, especially when they have to be installed as pairs. That's why when I requested the RMA, I did it for qty two in hopes that they'd do the same thing and send me one Taiwan and China so I could just send the China back and sure enough they did and I kept the Taiwan ones.

I was so taken back by the lack of them matching that I was even wondering if the China ones were fake Centric rotors [after hearing about 'lightweight' rotors coming out of China]...and the Taiwan ones are the real deal or if Centric is even aware of such differing casting and machining with the same part number [my guess is if they are aware, then they're seriously banking on that whatever retailer is going to send out a pair always from the same 'made in' and that's to even say that even though they are made in the same place that they match]. There is so much counterfeit coming out of China it's not implausible; my sister was just telling me about how counterfeit wine is a HUGE problem in China right now.

 

[ChrisW]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
As far as I can tell Raybestos AT rotors are the best quality/price as far as aftermarket rotors go and they're just about all chinese now. ACDelco aftermarket line are similar. I think Wagner are ok too. All these other fancy pants aftermarket brands I have little use for.

That said, I don't fully trust any aftermarket china sourced (casted or machined) rotors. I always try to turn the OEM rotor if possible or just rerun the OE rotors and that's cheaper and better than any china rotor. Or I try to get OES if the price is anywhere reasonable.

There's a possiblity if the pulsation comes back you have hub run out and these AT rotors will eventually develop thickness variation through no fault of their own.





I'm always hesitant of turning rotors nowadays, one because I want as much 'heatsink' on my rotors as possible, and two, I don't trust the places near me to machine rotors; last time I took a pair in to then-called kragen they machined the rotors and even put on a nice non-directional however they measured just at min thickness. If there is no scoring, heat spots, glazing cracking etc or especially a lip on the rotors and it measures a fair amount above min thick, by all means I just put on a new set of pads knowing there will be some noise as the pad beds in. I did take a brake and suspension class at my local city-college and learned how to use the brake lathe but I'm not about to try an convince myself to by one for the garage

I'll have to keep an eye out for additional pulsation developing; if the hubs check true at that point, then I'll have to say it's likely pad deposits and I'll get the Akebonos even though I really like the overall feel of the Bendix CT-3. Perhaps the Centric rotors always did have pulsation/runout but it was such an improvement over the stock pads that I overlooked it. I just never wanted to believe that Centric's premium 120 series rotors would have any runout with the way they talk about how good they are and all the features such as split core castings, double disc ground to ensure parallelism etc.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: ChrisW
It was just a wire brush cup kit at Home Depot for $12. It came with a 2" cup, a 1" one, a 3" wheel, I couldn't quite get the sand-paper like flap wheel thing to fit in the crevices. I wasn't aware 3M made a hub cleaning kit? I'll have to check it out if it makes it easier than using a wire cup brush.

The thing about the rust is that I did clean off when I did the job with the Centric rotors and when I pulled them off anything left wasn't able to be felt as a 'raised' surface for lack of a better description. There was some rust but is was more dust like. I did take more time to clean the hubs again this time, so that may have been it. I did use a corded drill this time versus a cordless last time. I suppose if the pulsation occurs again, I can check the hubs for rust and clean 'em up and see if it goes away, then I can just attribute this problem to rust build up on hub. Or if I have time I can have the Centric rotors checked at a local shop.

I don't think I've ever pulled a rotor off where there wasn't any rust on the hub, certainly not to the point of how would that existing rust not have cause the original setup to have runout felt while braking. Then again in my particular situation, I really feel like it was the Centric rotors, and not hub rust or slide pin issues as the pads were wearing evenly inner/outboard and left/right side with no taper. In anycase, I'm just amazed on how much more pleasurable it is to drive the car when it has properly working brakes

I think that it is important to have a clean, flat surface to start...and if any rust decides to grow in-between the surfaces, so be it.

This is the 3M hub cleaning kit I use:

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?SSSSSufSevTsZxtUN8t1P8_SevUqevTSevTSevTSeSSSSSS--

Originally Posted By: ChrisW
That CRC stuff is garbage on slide pins and rubber boots. Probably the only thing I'd ever use it on is backing plates in between the shim [if the shims aren't already bonded]. The only reason I bought that big jar from autozone 8+ years ago is because I thought it was good back then and it was the only one in such a big jar back then. Napa has their branded 4oz tubes of Sil-Glyde for under $4 and it even has many more uses than the CRC stuff. For me, Sil-glyde all the way on slide pins unless I someday get my hands on the more expensive Dow-Corning silicone stuff.


I use 3M #08946 or Motorcraft XG-3-A on the slide pins and a dab of Honda Molykote M77 paste on the pad ears and the areas where the the caliper fingers and piston contact the pads. If the pads have detachable shims (i.e. genuine Toyota, Honda or Nissan), I will apply M77 to the pad backing and the shims.

Ironically, Hyundai endorses the use of the CRC stuff in their TSBs:

http://www.procutinternational.com/pdf/OEM_Hyundai_10-BR-001.pdf

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I would definitely buy rotors from whoever supplies that Taiwanese rotor. It looks pretty darn good to me. The trouble is, if you order from Centric, you'll have no idea if you're getting Chinese or Taiwanese.


I have never seen anything but Made in China Centric 120 series rotors.

Also, the Raybestos mid-grade rotors may appear to be good quality, but who knows if the grade of steel matches OE.

Originally Posted By: ChrisW

There was no way I'd ever put that initial shipment Amazon sent me on my GF's IS250, thank you to me for being OCD/anal about inspecting parts before using them, especially when they have to be installed as pairs. That's why when I requested the RMA, I did it for qty two in hopes that they'd do the same thing and send me one Taiwan and China so I could just send the China back and sure enough they did and I kept the Taiwan ones.

Ahh, you ordered the rotors from Amazon. Usually Amazon's auto parts are extremely old stock...I once received some 5-yr old brake pads from Amazon. I would not trust Amazon for parts...stick with Rockauto or some other wholesale supply house that moves inventory quickly.

Originally Posted By: ChrisW

I'll have to keep an eye out for additional pulsation developing; if the hubs check true at that point, then I'll have to say it's likely pad deposits and I'll get the Akebonos even though I really like the overall feel of the Bendix CT-3. Perhaps the Centric rotors always did have pulsation/runout but it was such an improvement over the stock pads that I overlooked it. I just never wanted to believe that Centric's premium 120 series rotors would have any runout with the way they talk about how good they are and all the features such as split core castings, double disc ground to ensure parallelism etc.


The Centric 125 series is their new flagship rotor, and has the high-carbon composition that is found in most OE rotors. Supposedly, Raybestos AT rotors are already of a high-carbon metallurgy where required by OE.

Also, the Centric 100 series brake pads are a great lower-cost alternative to the dealership pads. They are the exact-same OE friction material, but use Centric's offshore noise-suppression hardware and "better-attached" shims.

Lastly, I do have a local source for these Centric rotors, PM me.

 

[stephen9666]

BTW - I now have about 30k miles on my Bendix CT-3 pads. I don't have any pulsation problems.

I overheated them during an aggressive break in, but that was my fault, not the pads. After working through that they've performed great for me.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

Originally Posted By: ChrisW

There was no way I'd ever put that initial shipment Amazon sent me on my GF's IS250, thank you to me for being OCD/anal about inspecting parts before using them, especially when they have to be installed as pairs. That's why when I requested the RMA, I did it for qty two in hopes that they'd do the same thing and send me one Taiwan and China so I could just send the China back and sure enough they did and I kept the Taiwan ones.

Ahh, you ordered the rotors from Amazon. Usually Amazon's auto parts are extremely old stock...I once received some 5-yr old brake pads from Amazon. I would not trust Amazon for parts...stick with Rockauto or some other wholesale supply house that moves inventory quickly.


I'm not sure it's fair to say " Usually Amazon's auto parts are extremely old stock." How many times have you received "old stock"? I remember reading your thread about the old pads, but have you had other issues?

I've ordered auto parts from Amazon multiple times and never received old stock. My CT-3 pads were even date coded. When I received them they were 8 months old.

Originally Posted By: The Critic

Also, the Raybestos mid-grade rotors may appear to be good quality, but who knows if the grade of steel matches OE.


The price doesn't match OE, either, in a good way. They were decently priced and have worked well for 30k miles so far. That seems good enough for me.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666

I'm not sure it's fair to say " Usually Amazon's auto parts are extremely old stock." How many times have you received "old stock"? I remember reading your thread about the old pads, but have you had other issues?

I've ordered auto parts from Amazon multiple times and never received old stock. My CT-3 pads were even date coded. When I received them they were 8 months old.


I recently ordered some ACDelco Durastop rotors for a Kia Sedona and they were also a couple years old.

Old stock is not always a bad thing, but it does increase the chances of the item being moved, banged around, etc...and this can be an issue for rotors.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

I recently ordered some ACDelco Durastop rotors for a Kia Sedona and they were also a couple years old.

Old stock is not always a bad thing, but it does increase the chances of the item being moved, banged around, etc...and this can be an issue for rotors.


In auto part lifespans I'm not sure two years is even that old.

My Raybestos Pro rotors also came from Amazon and they were fine. Packaging in good shape and nothing damaged.

 

[Artem]

I always pay a bit extra for higher quality parts, so this type of thing would never happen to me. I use Brembo Blank Rotors and Hawk HPS (High Performance Stree) pads on all my cars. Flawless operation for years on end and a few of my cars get beat on pretty bad on a daily basis.