oops......you are the exception....
MMO in fuel
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I'll take that into consideration next time we exchange recipes.
Eddie: The engine that was taken apart was a Ford 3.8 V-6 due to a blown head gasket (Of Course) I have used MMO in everything from new vehicles to a 1978 Chevy Van with a 350 that had
almost 300,000 miles on it
almost 300,000 miles on it
I've used MMO for years in the fuel. One thing I've noticed is that there is never any varnishing in the throttle bodies or carbs. I don't use it every tank, but maybe every 6 or so fill-ups. The one exception is the Harley. I put a cap full in every tank, usually about 4 gallons.
Observation: In autos, I've noticed a slight increase in Miles per gallon. Does it full the O2 sensors into thinking they're running too rich?
Observation: In autos, I've noticed a slight increase in Miles per gallon. Does it full the O2 sensors into thinking they're running too rich?
I just put a half quart of it in my '98 chevy pickup yesterday. I have gone about 50 miles with it in there and it is driving better. I have been getting a steady decrease in power at all RPMs for quite a while now. I still believe it is my cat because I don't have much exhaust pressure at the tail pipe and I faintly hear the "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF" sound. My rpm's wouldn't go back down when I took it out of gear to coast and I ended up climbing moderate hills in 3rd gear at 40 MPH.
I put the MMO in and I instantly noticed my fuel pump was noticeably quieter. It has always been loud. I just put a new pump in about a month ago and the new one was just as loud as the old one. After 50 miles I feel some of the power coming back. Detonation under load is gone. The exhaust at the pipe is considerably hotter and feels almost moist as compared to before. Could this help clean my cat?
I am going to put the other half quart in with the next tank and see what happens. I go through about a tank a week.
I put the MMO in and I instantly noticed my fuel pump was noticeably quieter. It has always been loud. I just put a new pump in about a month ago and the new one was just as loud as the old one. After 50 miles I feel some of the power coming back. Detonation under load is gone. The exhaust at the pipe is considerably hotter and feels almost moist as compared to before. Could this help clean my cat?
I am going to put the other half quart in with the next tank and see what happens. I go through about a tank a week.
"It never showed lower wear, lowered insolubles,nitration, or oxidation in our testing. I have used it as a cleaner for years too."
I wouldn't expect it to do such things as most seem to be using it as a fuel system cleaner, where the primary benefit would be less 'carbon' or varnish in the engine. I would compare adding MMO to the fuel like Chevron Fuel System Cleaner. Even for those adding it to oil, something that I wouldn't consider doing, I wouldn't expect to see much changes, as again the primary benefit would seem to be reducing sludge and varnish that is built up on surfaces. If MMO showed no increase in wear and cleaned as well as it seems to, then it seems to be a decent product. Other similar products that seem to get good marks are the Chevron Fuel System Cleaner, and to a lesser degree some other fuel system additives.
The mark of a good oil additive would for 'cleaning' would be no increase in wear, the ability to remove sludge and unstick rings, and the ability to keep to keep the engine clean and the rings unstuck.
I wouldn't expect it to do such things as most seem to be using it as a fuel system cleaner, where the primary benefit would be less 'carbon' or varnish in the engine. I would compare adding MMO to the fuel like Chevron Fuel System Cleaner. Even for those adding it to oil, something that I wouldn't consider doing, I wouldn't expect to see much changes, as again the primary benefit would seem to be reducing sludge and varnish that is built up on surfaces. If MMO showed no increase in wear and cleaned as well as it seems to, then it seems to be a decent product. Other similar products that seem to get good marks are the Chevron Fuel System Cleaner, and to a lesser degree some other fuel system additives.
The mark of a good oil additive would for 'cleaning' would be no increase in wear, the ability to remove sludge and unstick rings, and the ability to keep to keep the engine clean and the rings unstuck.
History of MMO
>Marvel Mystery Oil was formulated by GMC's Buick plant during the 1920's to keep the jets in Marvel Carburetors clean and working
That's essentially correct. In the 1920s, gasoline was unstable, and could oxidize to form varnish. But that has nothing to do with the fuels of the last 50 years, which are stable, and for the last 30 years include detergents to keep fuel injectors clean.
"Aviation Consumer" had MMO analyzed, and it is a single-weight oil with a viscosity rating of 4, peppermint odor, blue dye, and contains phosphorus (presumably triphenyl phosphate, which is what's in Alcor TCP and Lycoming LW-16702 additive). In oil, it acts as a solvent and dilutes the base viscosity. In fuel, it lowers the octane rating slightly.
MMO is often mentioned as a "cure" for valve sticking. John Schwaner says "Do not use MMO or other solvents to unstick a valve. Eventually the valve may unstick, but not before your camshaft lobes have been damaged. Solvent treatments dissolve the outer deposit layers in the guide boss and temporarily unstick the valve. The remaining deposits push the valve over to the opposite side of the guide and cause rapid, uneven guide wear." He goes on to describe the results. http://www.sierra.net/skyranch/frame1.htm select "Stuck Valves"
and more!
Although there have been several replies to the question:
> What's TCP?
here's a trivia note: use of TCP tricresyl phosphate, was discontinued in 1990 due to health concerns. It was replaced with TPP triphenyl phosphate.
HC = CH HC - CH
/ \ // \\
R - C C - O - P - O - C C - R
\\ // | \ /
HC - CH O HC = CH
|
C
// \
HC CH TCP: R is CH3
| ||
HC CH TPP: R is H
\\ /
C
|
R
TPP has very similar properties, but there is some doubt about its effectiveness. Both are toxic and corrosive, and should be handled with gloves and good ventilation.
Shell 15W50 and Phillips 20W50 include TPP as an EP extreme pressure additive. Marvel Mystery Oil contains phosphorus, presumably as TPP. Lycoming sells TPP as LW-16702, and Alcor as "TCP".
Contrary to one previous posting, TCP affects neither the octane rating of gasoline, nor the viscosity index of oil.
TCP is an EP extreme pressure additive for oil: On the cylinder head walls, TCP reacts with clean steel surface to form a soft iron phosphate monolayer. The rings tear this soft monolayer off during each power stroke, thereby reducing wear to a single atomic layer of iron, instead of ripping several layers of unprotected steel. It has the same reaction on Lycoming camshafts, which are not otherwise lubricated during cold starts. Its use is recommended in Lycoming Service Bulletin 446C to deter camshaft
scuffing during start-up and initial cold running.
Aircraft engines are intentionally designed to burn oil, and steel cylinder head walls are designed to wear out, in about 8000 hours.
Unlike the EP additives used in automotive oils (zinc dithiophosphates), TPP is ashless and does not erode silver alloys used in certain Continental front-end and Lycoming supercharger bearings.
TCP can be used as a lead scavenger additive for fuel: TCP is more volatile than ethylene dibromide, so is better distributed to all the cylinders by the induction system of carbureted engines. (Lead is not an octane enhancer; it is the ethyl radicals formed by the thermal decomposition of tetraethyl lead that are the octane enhancers. These combine with radicals from fuel, thereby quenching spontaneous combustion, or detonation.) During combustion, TCP reacts with lead to form a soft lead phosphate, which can be blown out the exhaust, rather than forming a hard lead oxide deposit sticking to the spark plugs, valve guides, etc.
Sorry for all the trivia, but sometimes technicalities get a bit hazy in rec.av. Remember Netiquette #6, friends: "Look things up."
--
[ June 22, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
>Marvel Mystery Oil was formulated by GMC's Buick plant during the 1920's to keep the jets in Marvel Carburetors clean and working
That's essentially correct. In the 1920s, gasoline was unstable, and could oxidize to form varnish. But that has nothing to do with the fuels of the last 50 years, which are stable, and for the last 30 years include detergents to keep fuel injectors clean.
"Aviation Consumer" had MMO analyzed, and it is a single-weight oil with a viscosity rating of 4, peppermint odor, blue dye, and contains phosphorus (presumably triphenyl phosphate, which is what's in Alcor TCP and Lycoming LW-16702 additive). In oil, it acts as a solvent and dilutes the base viscosity. In fuel, it lowers the octane rating slightly.
MMO is often mentioned as a "cure" for valve sticking. John Schwaner says "Do not use MMO or other solvents to unstick a valve. Eventually the valve may unstick, but not before your camshaft lobes have been damaged. Solvent treatments dissolve the outer deposit layers in the guide boss and temporarily unstick the valve. The remaining deposits push the valve over to the opposite side of the guide and cause rapid, uneven guide wear." He goes on to describe the results. http://www.sierra.net/skyranch/frame1.htm select "Stuck Valves"
and more!
Although there have been several replies to the question:
> What's TCP?
here's a trivia note: use of TCP tricresyl phosphate, was discontinued in 1990 due to health concerns. It was replaced with TPP triphenyl phosphate.
HC = CH HC - CH
/ \ // \\
R - C C - O - P - O - C C - R
\\ // | \ /
HC - CH O HC = CH
|
C
// \
HC CH TCP: R is CH3
| ||
HC CH TPP: R is H
\\ /
C
|
R
TPP has very similar properties, but there is some doubt about its effectiveness. Both are toxic and corrosive, and should be handled with gloves and good ventilation.
Shell 15W50 and Phillips 20W50 include TPP as an EP extreme pressure additive. Marvel Mystery Oil contains phosphorus, presumably as TPP. Lycoming sells TPP as LW-16702, and Alcor as "TCP".
Contrary to one previous posting, TCP affects neither the octane rating of gasoline, nor the viscosity index of oil.
TCP is an EP extreme pressure additive for oil: On the cylinder head walls, TCP reacts with clean steel surface to form a soft iron phosphate monolayer. The rings tear this soft monolayer off during each power stroke, thereby reducing wear to a single atomic layer of iron, instead of ripping several layers of unprotected steel. It has the same reaction on Lycoming camshafts, which are not otherwise lubricated during cold starts. Its use is recommended in Lycoming Service Bulletin 446C to deter camshaft
scuffing during start-up and initial cold running.
Aircraft engines are intentionally designed to burn oil, and steel cylinder head walls are designed to wear out, in about 8000 hours.
Unlike the EP additives used in automotive oils (zinc dithiophosphates), TPP is ashless and does not erode silver alloys used in certain Continental front-end and Lycoming supercharger bearings.
TCP can be used as a lead scavenger additive for fuel: TCP is more volatile than ethylene dibromide, so is better distributed to all the cylinders by the induction system of carbureted engines. (Lead is not an octane enhancer; it is the ethyl radicals formed by the thermal decomposition of tetraethyl lead that are the octane enhancers. These combine with radicals from fuel, thereby quenching spontaneous combustion, or detonation.) During combustion, TCP reacts with lead to form a soft lead phosphate, which can be blown out the exhaust, rather than forming a hard lead oxide deposit sticking to the spark plugs, valve guides, etc.
Sorry for all the trivia, but sometimes technicalities get a bit hazy in rec.av. Remember Netiquette #6, friends: "Look things up."
--
[ June 22, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
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1sttruck ..due to my ever increasing flux'd density :^) ..can you offer what conclusions that you've formed from this information? Supposition ..or "what this says to me" will be cheerfully accepted.
Mobil should have mixed some MMO with their synthetic aircraft oils :^)
MMO seems to get mixed reviews as either an oil or fuel additive, but seems to have a dedicated group of fuel additive users. I added some to our older car yesterday and it does seem to run better. I want to use it some cleaning, to see if I can get it to run on plus or regular with no pinging when going up our hill on a warm day. Wondering why it might run better it seems that it's either changing the combustion a bit, or maybe cleaning/lubing the injectors with something that they haven't seen, or maybe producing a bit less friction betwen the rings and cynlinder, and perhaps swelling some seals. Being a light oil it seems that 'lubing' might be happening. I don't know if the TCP/TPP long term is a good thing for the injectors.
MMO seems to get mixed reviews as either an oil or fuel additive, but seems to have a dedicated group of fuel additive users. I added some to our older car yesterday and it does seem to run better. I want to use it some cleaning, to see if I can get it to run on plus or regular with no pinging when going up our hill on a warm day. Wondering why it might run better it seems that it's either changing the combustion a bit, or maybe cleaning/lubing the injectors with something that they haven't seen, or maybe producing a bit less friction betwen the rings and cynlinder, and perhaps swelling some seals. Being a light oil it seems that 'lubing' might be happening. I don't know if the TCP/TPP long term is a good thing for the injectors.
You mean there are others who save "special" advice just for moribundman?quote:
Originally posted by Pablo:
oops......you are the exception....
Texaco used to advertize TCP in their gas in the late 60's or early 70's.
I always thought it stood for "Tom Cat P!ss" because it "Really makes your car Scat!"
Seems it dosen't hurt Cats per the testimonials but knowing it contains Phospates will stop me from ever using ot as a fuel additive with current emissions equipment. It wouldn't surprise me if they're no longer in the mix.
JHZR2
Staff member
I bought some to run in the BMW. Figured since Im borderline in the NOx emissions department, anything that might clean the combustion chambers would be a good thing to try.
I added about 8 oz to an ~15 gallon tank. A little heavier than the recomendation, but I figured thats OK.
No change noted whatsoever. No difference in idle, power, or fuel pump sound. Granted there was LC in there beforehand, and addition of that quieted the pump down somewhat already, so I woundlt expect the pump to get quieter.
At the same time, I noted no improvement in power, idle, smoothness, noise, etc. when using FP60 at shock and regular dose rates. Ive never noted any benefit in any of my cars, except that it quiets the fuel pump, so its lubricity is confirmed.
I figure MMO is good to use once in a while. Even with FP being used. Cant hurt really.
JMH
I added about 8 oz to an ~15 gallon tank. A little heavier than the recomendation, but I figured thats OK.
No change noted whatsoever. No difference in idle, power, or fuel pump sound. Granted there was LC in there beforehand, and addition of that quieted the pump down somewhat already, so I woundlt expect the pump to get quieter.
At the same time, I noted no improvement in power, idle, smoothness, noise, etc. when using FP60 at shock and regular dose rates. Ive never noted any benefit in any of my cars, except that it quiets the fuel pump, so its lubricity is confirmed.
I figure MMO is good to use once in a while. Even with FP being used. Cant hurt really.
JMH
TCP? Is this triORTHOcresyl phosphate (AKA triorthotolyl phosphate)? If so, I can sure understand why it would be a no-no... Can you say "cholinesterase inhibitor"? IIRC the same stuff was used as a flavorant which caused "ginger paralysis" many, many years ago... Hope the TCP mentioned above is a different isomer...
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In its current formulation ..I don't believe that it contains anything bad for your cat:
from their site:
Safe for catalytic converters and oxygen sensors
Here's the 6/02 MSDS
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
o-Dichlorobenzene 000095-50-1 0-1
Stoddard solvent 008052-41-3 20-30
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate solvent extract 064742-52-5 70-80
and the one with no date on it (before, after?)
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
Stoddard solvent 008052-41-3 Distillates, petroleum, solvent-refined heavy naphthenic 064741-96-4 Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy naphthenic
Where's the TCP? I don't even see any "trade secret/proprietory ingredient" notation.
OTOH it does show that some ATF's have some phos in them ..not all.
[ June 23, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
from their site:
Safe for catalytic converters and oxygen sensors
Here's the 6/02 MSDS
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
o-Dichlorobenzene 000095-50-1 0-1
Stoddard solvent 008052-41-3 20-30
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate solvent extract 064742-52-5 70-80
and the one with no date on it (before, after?)
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
Stoddard solvent 008052-41-3 Distillates, petroleum, solvent-refined heavy naphthenic 064741-96-4 Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy naphthenic
Where's the TCP? I don't even see any "trade secret/proprietory ingredient" notation.
OTOH it does show that some ATF's have some phos in them ..not all.
[ June 23, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
JHZR2, just drive the fuel down low to say a couple of gallons. Then add about a quart of pure 100% racing Methanol like the Indy cars use, usually sold at your local dragstrip.
Meth burns very cool and very clean. It will eliminate most if not all of the NOX. It probably raises the octane too as Alky race cars usually run around 14:1 compression.
Meth will generally lower your fuel economy as it packs few BTU's than gas.
But the real issue with it is that it is hydroscopic. It will attract water and that will rust out your metal gas tank and corrode any aluminum fuel system parts over time. No biggie once a year when you only add 1 qt to breeze through a dyno test with a hollowed out cat, racing cam and Holly carburator hidden under the factory looking breather. ;~)
Just don't park the car and let it sit with the meth in for an exteneded time. Drive it nearly daily until you have run a couple of tanks of gas through it to purge the meth from the fuel system before you stop driving for days at a time.
Meth burns very cool and very clean. It will eliminate most if not all of the NOX. It probably raises the octane too as Alky race cars usually run around 14:1 compression.
Meth will generally lower your fuel economy as it packs few BTU's than gas.
But the real issue with it is that it is hydroscopic. It will attract water and that will rust out your metal gas tank and corrode any aluminum fuel system parts over time. No biggie once a year when you only add 1 qt to breeze through a dyno test with a hollowed out cat, racing cam and Holly carburator hidden under the factory looking breather. ;~)
Just don't park the car and let it sit with the meth in for an exteneded time. Drive it nearly daily until you have run a couple of tanks of gas through it to purge the meth from the fuel system before you stop driving for days at a time.
From what I could gather MMO was analyzed by 'Aviation Consumer' and found to contain, in part, 790 ppm of phosphorus additive. The company denied that it was an ingredient though. An older msds noted that it contained dichlorobenzene.
Just to keep beating this drum on MMO, I don't know what's in it today vs. the old days, but I still think it's good stuff. I am disappointed that it doesn't contain Sperm Whale Oil, if it ever did. I would like to caution that people are expecting immeadiate results with it. My experience with it is that it takes from 3-5 tanks of fuel to feel any difference, if any. MMO is a long term use additive, but does free and quiet sticky lifters and other problems like that quite quickly when it has an immeadiate effect.
I have not used it in a routine course of maintanance, only when I've had symptoms and problems, with older cars that have sat and not driven enough to keep them healthy. On my new cars, they shouldn't need MMO, they go to the dealer for warranty repairs. I use it to help improve things and not to hide or mask a situation.
MMO is something that is kinda exotic like GC, but is something that us everyday guys can afford to use once in a while when we think something is needed to help the problem.
I have not used it in a routine course of maintanance, only when I've had symptoms and problems, with older cars that have sat and not driven enough to keep them healthy. On my new cars, they shouldn't need MMO, they go to the dealer for warranty repairs. I use it to help improve things and not to hide or mask a situation.
MMO is something that is kinda exotic like GC, but is something that us everyday guys can afford to use once in a while when we think something is needed to help the problem.
Just as a test, I have a 93 Ford Ranger with a 4 liter that was pinging so bad that I had to shift down on the slightest hill. I have been running 16 oz per 16 gallon tank for about three tanks now and the pinging is gone. I`m getting ready to take a vacation and will do it at about 12 oz per tank while I`m gone. I`m a happy camper.
FP stopped my 98 2.5L Ranger from pinging and surging under load. It had no low-end power and was hard to manage taking off with the 5-speed on a hill. You either slipped the clutch excessively or it would buck or bog and go dead. Stalling in traffic is a PITA!
With the LC at 3 ounces per 5 gallons of gas, the problems went away after about 30 miles of driving. Now a couple of tanks later at only 1 ounce of LC per 5 gallons of gas seems to be maintaining the smoother more powerful low-end power and it has not pinged under load since the initial FP application.
But the real deal is my 20 year old 11hp Briggs powered Craftsman garden tractor/mower (built by Murry). It has lots of hours and lots of abuse. I have towed a cart with two Bobcat scoops of dirt (about 1,200 to 1,500 pounds) several cumlitive miles when we were relandscaping my yard a few years back. The gas used to leek into the crankcase and I drove it several times on a fuel/oil mixture in the crankcase until I figured out why the oil level was always rising higher up the stick from one week to the next.
Anyhoo, this lawn tractor riding mower is shot. It is beat, worn out, used up. It blows blue smoke out the exhaust and is hard to start. I sometimes have to shoot starting fluid to the intake to get it to fire in the cool temps of spring. Lately it was running rough and refusing to rev up to the usual maximum rpm where I always run it.
Last week it got so bad that it was noticibly missing and sputtering. I figured the plug was probably oil fouled. I was in a big hurry and was mad. I had a few ounces of FP left in a gallon jug so I poured it all in the half full 2 quart gas tank... geeze, it must have been more like 10 or 15 ounces in jug because the 2 quart tank was closer to 3/4 full... ooooops.
Still mad (I loose my temper when hungry and hot as a result of low blood sugar -hypogycemia) I said, screw it! If i blow the dang thang up because I put too much Fuel Power in it, so what!
It was still hard to restart but the FP had not reached the carburateor bowl yet. After about a minute of sputtering and missing, it seemed to smooth out at idle significantly. Figuring that it had warmed up enough, I set the throttle to the maxium (full bore) setting that I always run it at. MAN!!! It hasn't reved up that high and that smooth in years!!! It actually ran as good as it did in 1993 when I bought it used!
MMO? It might work ok as a fuel additive, at least in some situations... but IMHO it pales as a fuel additive compared to FP.
With the LC at 3 ounces per 5 gallons of gas, the problems went away after about 30 miles of driving. Now a couple of tanks later at only 1 ounce of LC per 5 gallons of gas seems to be maintaining the smoother more powerful low-end power and it has not pinged under load since the initial FP application.
But the real deal is my 20 year old 11hp Briggs powered Craftsman garden tractor/mower (built by Murry). It has lots of hours and lots of abuse. I have towed a cart with two Bobcat scoops of dirt (about 1,200 to 1,500 pounds) several cumlitive miles when we were relandscaping my yard a few years back. The gas used to leek into the crankcase and I drove it several times on a fuel/oil mixture in the crankcase until I figured out why the oil level was always rising higher up the stick from one week to the next.
Anyhoo, this lawn tractor riding mower is shot. It is beat, worn out, used up. It blows blue smoke out the exhaust and is hard to start. I sometimes have to shoot starting fluid to the intake to get it to fire in the cool temps of spring. Lately it was running rough and refusing to rev up to the usual maximum rpm where I always run it.
Last week it got so bad that it was noticibly missing and sputtering. I figured the plug was probably oil fouled. I was in a big hurry and was mad. I had a few ounces of FP left in a gallon jug so I poured it all in the half full 2 quart gas tank... geeze, it must have been more like 10 or 15 ounces in jug because the 2 quart tank was closer to 3/4 full... ooooops.
Still mad (I loose my temper when hungry and hot as a result of low blood sugar -hypogycemia) I said, screw it! If i blow the dang thang up because I put too much Fuel Power in it, so what!
It was still hard to restart but the FP had not reached the carburateor bowl yet. After about a minute of sputtering and missing, it seemed to smooth out at idle significantly. Figuring that it had warmed up enough, I set the throttle to the maxium (full bore) setting that I always run it at. MAN!!! It hasn't reved up that high and that smooth in years!!! It actually ran as good as it did in 1993 when I bought it used!
MMO? It might work ok as a fuel additive, at least in some situations... but IMHO it pales as a fuel additive compared to FP.
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