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#2888194 - 01/29/13 03:18 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
beechcraftted Offline


Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 117
Loc: Milwaukee, WI.
I am neither a tree hugger nor a corn farmer and I do dislike the special interest politics referenced above. But (there is always a but) the USA is currently using 3.7 million gallons of gasoline PER DAY. This has resulted in a huge transfer of wealth to some places that don't like us too much (middle east, Venezuela, etc.). Given current day politics (pipeline construction, EPA, middle east political instability, etc) some alternative is going to have to be found. Why not "blender" pumps where a consumer could purchase E-0, E-10, E-30, E-85. Brazil did this years back and now imports little or no oil. Ethanol may not be the end all, be all solution, but it works for me. Hydrogen could be OK, but requires Kevlar/fiberglass weave tanks that are DOT approved. Very expensive and you need 4 for an 8 hour run time. I know this because my company investigated retrofitting a small fleet of 40,000 lb. medium duty trucks. Turned out the conversion was not cost effective. Why couldn't we take a hard look at something (ethanol) that is already sold at some stations and can be tranported by conventional means (which hydrogen cannot).
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#2888508 - 01/29/13 06:47 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 11733
Loc: The Motor City
beechcraftted, we do not object to having ethanol in our fuel as much as we object to where it comes from. They should not be making it out of corn. It should be made of something that we don't eat and something doesn't require us to set aside prime arable land that could be used to make food. Corn (and sugarcane) is not the only possible source for ethanol.

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#2888891 - 01/30/13 04:48 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 18330
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^Thanks for that.

Whether you go left or right ethanol the way we do it is purely a political solution that benefits farmers. Consumers get to pay for it, and in so many different ways that I wonder if many understand what it's doing to food prices and such.

Despite the spin, the facts are very different than what is reported on the news. And we haven't even mentioned the interesting and highly toxic byproducts of ethanol when combusted in an engine, most of which end in "zene"!
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#2940172 - 03/15/13 10:40 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
there IS a reason why we have had gasoline for so many years!!! but i repeat my self.

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#2940509 - 03/16/13 11:27 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
getnpsi Offline


Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 698
Loc: Fontana, California
Production of everything we consume burns more fuel than for propulsion. What is the "footprint" of a car that is already here? If all Americans across the board kept their cars running an extra two years, extended OCI 1,500 miles and simply drove it 10% less there would be a huge shift. The danger in this is would affect the US economy from lost taxes, car sales, retailers. Everyone made fun of the pump up your tires and save millions in a speech but the most common sense conservation tactics on the ground level is easier to give a go than Washington, or other countries' interests.
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#3047752 - 06/27/13 09:35 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3117
Loc: Central Iowa
Trash article. Subsidies were eliminated in 2011. And dig this one.... at the request of the ethanol producers! And there is NO loss to food supply using corn for ethanol production. This was a hack reporting job that exhibits extreme bias. No factual data whatsoever. I have seen the biofuel production situation since the early 70's first hand. There is no waste of any kind. There is no disruption to the food supply in any measure. In fact, there are several high end food products that are made from the residual distillers grain after the starches are removed for producing ethanol. Folks must seem to think that all of that is just dumped. It is a very in demand product that commands a good price because of it's quality.

Call your local Farm Bureau and they can fill you in on all the details. Or even you local ag extension office. They can set the record straight also. So many folks rely on the writings and rantings of those that wouldn't know corn from sorghum in a field if their life depended on it.
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#3047959 - 06/28/13 05:44 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 18330
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^The Farm Bureau. No agenda there at all.

Simply not true, you been drinkin' that kool aid?
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3048836 - 06/28/13 09:02 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 3881
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Trash article. Subsidies were eliminated in 2011. And dig this one.... at the request of the ethanol producers! And there is NO loss to food supply using corn for ethanol production. This was a hack reporting job that exhibits extreme bias. No factual data whatsoever. I have seen the biofuel production situation since the early 70's first hand. There is no waste of any kind. There is no disruption to the food supply in any measure. In fact, there are several high end food products that are made from the residual distillers grain after the starches are removed for producing ethanol. Folks must seem to think that all of that is just dumped. It is a very in demand product that commands a good price because of it's quality.

Call your local Farm Bureau and they can fill you in on all the details. Or even you local ag extension office. They can set the record straight also. So many folks rely on the writings and rantings of those that wouldn't know corn from sorghum in a field if their life depended on it.


Corn is about 70% starch. Almost all is removed. You are confusing 1 lb of corn and 1 lb of distillers grain. Hint, it take more than 1 lb of corn to make 1 lb of distillers grains.

Here you go:
Quote:
Distillers grain is an important co-product of drymill ethanol production. Drymill ethanol production process uses only the starch portion of the corn, which is about 70% of the kernel. All the remaining nutrients - protein, fat, minerals, and vitamins - are concentrated into distillers grain, a valuable feed for livestock. A bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds and will produce at least 2.8 gallons of ethanol and 17 pounds of distillers grain.

Ethanol.org

You going to stick with your "no loss to food supply" nonsense?


Edited by hatt (06/28/13 09:08 PM)
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#3056897 - 07/06/13 11:53 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3117
Loc: Central Iowa
Yes I am! And I am not confusing anything.

Roughly 80% of corn production is used for livestock feed. Whether it is also used for ethanol or not. The small portion of total corn production that is intended for human consumption is not affected in any way. Only 40% of total corn production in the US is used for ethanol production. And NONE of that 40% comes out of the corn production intended for human consumption.

True, it does take more than a lb of corn to make a lb of DDG. But that is not the whole story here. Most of the starches used in ethanol production, if fed to livestock, would end up on the ground or in the sludge ponds. Cattle, in particular, do not absorb the starches in corn, but instead pass them on thru. Since they are wasted in livestock production, why not use the starches in ethanol production and then give the resulting DDG to livestock, which they can actually use. So, while it does take more than a pound of corn to make a pound of DDG, it also takes far less DDG than corn to produce the same result on livestock.

This is so clear to one who actually has experience feeding livestock. It goes missing on those that have no clue what is involved in livestock production. This is the problem the agriculture community has in stating it's case. The vast majority of folks, and politicians, haven't a clue what the whole crop production, livestock production, and ethanol relationship is all about. It is a similar problem with biodiesel. Soybeans are crushed into meal and oil. The meal is used for livestock, the oil is used for a variety of purposes including biodiesel production. Otherwise, the oil would be nothing but a waste byproduct. Livestock don't need the oil and neither do people. People may use it to deep fat fry some foods, but they do not need it to live. So, the same situation exists.... there is no loss to the food supply to produce biodiesel.

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#3056974 - 07/07/13 05:32 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 3881
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yes I am! And I am not confusing anything.

Roughly 80% of corn production is used for livestock feed. Whether it is also used for ethanol or not. The small portion of total corn production that is intended for human consumption is not affected in any way. Only 40% of total corn production in the US is used for ethanol production. And NONE of that 40% comes out of the corn production intended for human consumption.

True, it does take more than a lb of corn to make a lb of DDG. But that is not the whole story here. Most of the starches used in ethanol production, if fed to livestock, would end up on the ground or in the sludge ponds. Cattle, in particular, do not absorb the starches in corn, but instead pass them on thru. Since they are wasted in livestock production, why not use the starches in ethanol production and then give the resulting DDG to livestock, which they can actually use. So, while it does take more than a pound of corn to make a pound of DDG, it also takes far less DDG than corn to produce the same result on livestock.

This is so clear to one who actually has experience feeding livestock. It goes missing on those that have no clue what is involved in livestock production. This is the problem the agriculture community has in stating it's case. The vast majority of folks, and politicians, haven't a clue what the whole crop production, livestock production, and ethanol relationship is all about. It is a similar problem with biodiesel. Soybeans are crushed into meal and oil. The meal is used for livestock, the oil is used for a variety of purposes including biodiesel production. Otherwise, the oil would be nothing but a waste byproduct. Livestock don't need the oil and neither do people. People may use it to deep fat fry some foods, but they do not need it to live. So, the same situation exists.... there is no loss to the food supply to produce biodiesel.


I'll post the same link in this thread. For someone with so much experience feeding cattle it looks like you would have come upon such info yourself.

Link
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#3297567 - 02/28/14 04:58 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 3347
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The corn lobby is an indescribable evil,


Sounds like you have your priorities straight. crazy

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#3297598 - 02/28/14 05:41 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: MolaKule]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 35948
Loc: Oz
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.

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#3297633 - 02/28/14 06:19 PM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: Shannow]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 3881
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.
That's where US agriculture is so screwed up. The government incentivises the stuff that we don't need much of and does nothing for the stuff that we do. Fresh fruit and veggie framers get nothing.
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#3297943 - 03/01/14 05:18 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 18330
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If your priorities include healthy food, including meat and milk with proper fatty acid profiles, a proper food pyramid that's not a slab of grains on the base, HFCS in everything, soil use/preservation...and yes ethanol, I include them all in my priorities.
That's where US agriculture is so screwed up. The government incentivises the stuff that we don't need much of and does nothing for the stuff that we do. Fresh fruit and veggie framers get nothing.


Nice link. I would like to see some more info, as I am a big believer in all this highly processed and altered foodstuff having an effect on the final product. As Shannow pointed out, the fatty acid profiles of meat are altered by diet. I note that cows do not normally eat corn in the wild as a food as well, even the incredibly tasty and desirable byproducts of ethanol production.

TT said it best. Let's drill, frack, boil, bake, recycle, and cook ALL forms of energy and enjoy the huge economic boom that would employ folks at decent wages and make more taxes flow into the system. Demand will sort them out just fine, we don't need lobbied subsidies or mandates as Central Planning is already holding up a HUGE pipeline that could employ thousands.

Or we could just imagine more divisive labels for each other, that seems to be popular...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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Just like we go to Publix

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#3299072 - 03/02/14 10:38 AM Re: Another Look at Ethanol [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 3117
Loc: Central Iowa
Originally Posted By: hatt

I'll post the same link in this thread. For someone with so much experience feeding cattle it looks like you would have come upon such info yourself.

Link


I read that a few years ago.

Only problem is the assumption that grain is the PRIMARY source of starch of energy. And the article only addresses cattle. As much or more of the products derived from DDG go to swine and poultry production as to cattle. But, go to a cattle feedlot, there is much more alfalfa, fermented silage, and other sources of carbs for livestock. And energy is not the primary concern of a feed lot operator. Stationary cattle in a feed lot do not need near the energy of grass fed cattle. The market demand is for a much leaner product than in years past. Protein has ALWAYS been a supplement to a sound cattle diet. And DDG products provide that. I currently have 45,000 lb of 60% protein Biolys brand product made from DDG at the Cargil Ethanol Plant in Blair, NE in my semi going to a feed producer north of Grand Rapids, MI. That producer takes several loads of this a week. I haul the stuff through out the midwest. The ethanol plant ships this stuff outside the country also.

And the article does address that the goal is to increase the digestion efficiency. DDG does that very nicely. I have never stated a 1 for 1 input for output of solid product from an ethanol production plant. Only a 1 for 1 or better total product production output for total corn input.

And now along comes a engine design company out of U.K., with corporate structure also in Detroit, Ricardo, that has specialized itself with ethanol internal combustion engines since the 1920's. They have put a prototype 3.2L Extreme Boost Direct Injection (EBDI) engine in a Chevy 3500HD that has the power, including low end torque, of the 6.6 Duramax Diesel, and much better fuel economy, for GM to do final testing on. And it uses E85!!! You remember... that super bad ethanol blend stuff with no fuel economy and a poor substitute for gas!



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