Transmission Failure After Valvoline MaxLife

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I can not prove if it was the fluid or not but the fluid is the only variable.



The fluid was the only variable? What about the miles you were putting on the vehicle while the fluid was in there? Do you think they might have had something to do with it?

It is very simplistic thinking to automatically draw a rigid correlation between an event and the last "thing" that preceeded it. If we are going to follow that logic, how do we know that maybe the last time you changed the fluid you didn't use your Lucky Wrench, or Lucky Drain Pan, or whatever? Did a black cat walk near the vehicle while you were changing the fluid? These possibilities seem every bit as likely.....

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


Normally I wouldn't agree with bashing a company....however the fact that Valvoline is VERY VAGUE about it's ATF approval for Honda and Acura DW1 spec leaves me VERY suspicious of them and their integrity.

While I do believe that Valvoline Max Life ATF meets Honda Z1 specs it DOES NOT list anywhere in WRITING that it meets the newer DW1 spec. Yet someone here called Valvoline on the phone and the person said that it DOES meet the DW1 spec.

Now after your DW1 spec tranny blows up or fails how much you wanna bet that the customers claim that a Valvoline phone rep said it was approved is going to get them a new tranny?

In my view this is very unethical behavior.


My view is that your view is ridiculous...

DW-1 is a new fluid, replacing Z-1. It claims, in writing, to "be suitable as a replacement for Z-1", then says the following: "The above constitutes only a partial list of applications approved by Valvoline. Please contact us at 1-800-Team-VAL for additional applications."

When you look at how other companies update their data sheets, I'd say they're providing more information than most. Using this as justification to bash a company seems a bit silly to me.

 

[FoxS]

Based in the evidence, it looks like the fluid was not the cause of failure.

The folks who handle warranty claims have to look out for the company. It's not that they shut the door on you, it's that you were looking to claim $2.7k+ from them and from the analysis, the fluid was as per spec. It was an open and shut case from their perspective. If the person who dealt with you was unsympathetic then that might be more about the person than the company.

In any case, I looked on Edmunds for your transmission maintenance schedule and the fluid and filter change first comes up at 50k as well as transfer case fluid. All 3 of these repeat at 50k intervals.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: JOD
[

My view is that your view is ridiculous...

DW-1 is a new fluid, replacing Z-1. It claims, in writing, to "be suitable as a replacement for Z-1", then says the following: "The above constitutes only a partial list of applications approved by Valvoline. Please contact us at 1-800-Team-VAL for additional applications."

When you look at how other companies update their data sheets, I'd say they're providing more information than most. Using this as justification to bash a company seems a bit silly to me.



That kind of change can be made in seconds on the internet today by PDF and yet Valvoline HASN'T DONE IT?


Castrol HAS with it's Transmax IMV ATF fluid.

I'm no fanboi of Castrol, but they have done it correctly. Valvoline has NOT.


Like I said before if there is a compatibility issue with a vehicle and the owner believe that the fluid was a factor, there is NO WAY LEGALLY THAT HE HAS ANY CHANCE OF GETTING Valvoline to stand behind their "claim" mentioned on a phone call by some CSR. LOL

When Valvoline states in written documentation (with paper and/or PDF ) that MaxLife ATF meets Honda DW1 spec, I will change my opinion and NOT until then.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: JOD
My view is that your view is ridiculous...

DW-1 is a new fluid, replacing Z-1. It claims, in writing, to "be suitable as a replacement for Z-1", then says the following: "The above constitutes only a partial list of applications approved by Valvoline. Please contact us at 1-800-Team-VAL for additional applications."

When you look at how other companies update their data sheets, I'd say they're providing more information than most. Using this as justification to bash a company seems a bit silly to me.

That kind of change can be made in seconds on the internet today by PDF and yet Valvoline HASN'T DONE IT?


Castrol HAS with it's Transmax IMV ATF fluid.

I'm no fanboi of Castrol, but they have done it correctly. Valvoline has NOT.

And Pennzoil still doesn't have data sheets up for some of it's SN oils, at least on their US site! I'm not saying it's not lame that they haven't updated the PDS, but I don't see the sort of conspiracy which you seem to see. Sometimes an apple is just an apple... And before I get accused of being a Maxlife "fanboy", which seems to be the common retort when someone refuses to summarily condemn a product, let me say I'm not a fan of universal ATF's in general and Maxlife in particular. I'm suspicious of any fluid that claims to be suitable for as many applications as it claims. But we aren't talking about that here. This is a DexIII application, and if there's any transmission for which this fluid should be suitable, it's this one.

 

[FoxS]

Just checked the owners manual and its also states 50k with 15k for severe.

So you changed it 23k later than required.

15k severe suggests that 50k normal is not that conservative.

Also Dex IIIH was not as long life as Dex VI

There are also very specific instructions on measuring the fluid when hot and cold and warnings about the danger of under filling and not getting accurate readings unless the specific procedures are followed. They warn about transmission overheating if under filled. The difference between low and high is only one pint. It should only be topped up on a hot transmission.

The amount of detail they go into suggests a very sensitive transmission.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I agree that Valvoline's response may not have been the most tactful, but look at it from their perspective. They have to assume that you got an accurate sample, and from your description, you did. They know that their fluid contains no zinc. They may also know that you drained and filled four times with MaxLife in a short period. For 19 ppm of zinc to remain after four fluid exchanges, there must have been a significant concentration of zinc before the first fluid change was started.

Dexron III doesn't contain zinc. You assert that the fluid was OEM, but the analysis doesn't exactly look like Dexron III fluid. You also didn't keep a sample for yourself, to have an independent lab run, like Blackstone. So there's really no ammunition to go back to Valvoline with here.

I'm not sure I would have come to a decision different from Valvoline's decision, though I may have worded my response differently.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: JOD
I'm not saying it's not lame that they haven't updated the PDS, but I don't see the sort of conspiracy which you seem to see.


It's not whether it is "lame", it IS that they haven't backed up their "claim" by putting it in writing, and if a AT failure occurs you have NO LEGAL recourse if you believe damage was done by their product. I love how viral marketing folks always use the "conspiracy" card, to make LEGIT serious questions look unreasonable.

The question is........again....

Why won't Valvoline take a few seconds to update their website to put in writing IF MaxLife meets Honda DW1 specs?

I know why, because their product doesn't meet those specs AND they don't want to be liable for any potential damage done.

 

[Oil Changer]

Doesn't matter. Nowhere in their product literature does it say not to use if your transmission was not serviced on schedule.

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Based in the evidence, it looks like the fluid was not the cause of failure.

The folks who handle warranty claims have to look out for the company. It's not that they shut the door on you, it's that you were looking to claim $2.7k+ from them and from the analysis, the fluid was as per spec. It was an open and shut case from their perspective. If the person who dealt with you was unsympathetic then that might be more about the person than the company.

In any case, I looked on Edmunds for your transmission maintenance schedule and the fluid and filter change first comes up at 50k as well as transfer case fluid. All 3 of these repeat at 50k intervals.

 

[Oil Changer]

I can not explain the zinc. I can say with complete certainty that the fluid I drained was the FF. No one but me has serviced this vehicle and this was the first time the transmission was touched.

The sample should not look like Dexron III, it should look like ML as that is what the sample is/was; drained and submitted to Valvoline after the transmission failure.

I did have enough of the burnt fluid to send to Blackstone. Ended up dumping it. There was no reason to spend the money. I have no reason to believe that Valvoline did anything unscrupulous with the sample I sent. They said I was free to send in my own sample to whomever I wished but that any findings would change nothing. They said they would not honor any warranty, period. So why would I waste my money sending a sample to Blackstone?




Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I agree that Valvoline's response may not have been the most tactful, but look at it from their perspective. They have to assume that you got an accurate sample, and from your description, you did. They know that their fluid contains no zinc. They may also know that you drained and filled four times with MaxLife in a short period. For 19 ppm of zinc to remain after four fluid exchanges, there must have been a significant concentration of zinc before the first fluid change was started.

Dexron III doesn't contain zinc. You assert that the fluid was OEM, but the analysis doesn't exactly look like Dexron III fluid. You also didn't keep a sample for yourself, to have an independent lab run, like Blackstone. So there's really no ammunition to go back to Valvoline with here.

I'm not sure I would have come to a decision different from Valvoline's decision, though I may have worded my response differently.

 

[Oil Changer]

I doubt that you would be so understanding or would be on such moral highground if it happened to you. Easy for you to say such things while on the other side of the fence.

Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I can not prove if it was the fluid or not but the fluid is the only variable.



The fluid was the only variable? What about the miles you were putting on the vehicle while the fluid was in there? Do you think they might have had something to do with it?

It is very simplistic thinking to automatically draw a rigid correlation between an event and the last "thing" that preceeded it. If we are going to follow that logic, how do we know that maybe the last time you changed the fluid you didn't use your Lucky Wrench, or Lucky Drain Pan, or whatever? Did a black cat walk near the vehicle while you were changing the fluid? These possibilities seem every bit as likely.....

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: meep
To the OP--- lots of good comments in this thread. I too feel like you did a good job and made good choices. I may have chosen to flush instead of multiple changes, or I could have done it your way, or even just one drain fill for now and the rest later.... everyone has their "favorite" and FWIW they all have their place--- your choices were fine. Even your choice of oil.

I have had ML screw up a honda AT, to the chagrin of many ML followers... but the honda AT is a bit different from a Dexron unit.

So--- I think your methodology was sound, as was your fluid choice. ATs do fail... and I'm in the camp thinking that the problem was already in its early stages, and if anything, you just hurried it along. Recent model Tahoes, rated for 7K+ lbs towing, are often seen failing at 150k with only light duty use. The GM 5.7L engine when through a rash of cam failures in the mid 2000's... even the Chevy trucks have a normal chance of breaking down, like every other mfr. Don't beat yourself up.

I did a full rehab of a clean but neglected town and country in 2011. Bought it and put it up on blocks for 3 months, working on it weekly. Included was a line flush, new filter, and magnefine filter. 1 year later (4000 miles, it's the weekend car), the solenoid pack failed. I suspect the same-- I helped it along. I used Castrol ATF +4, a fluid I've had good luck with.

So don't feel too bad about you or the vehicle-- it happens. You did good for trying to care for it.

M


The 5.7 Chevy's had a rash of cam failures in the mid 2000's? 1998 was the last year of a 5.7 in a Chevy truck. In 99 they went to the 5.3.
Was it the 5.3's that had cam failures. Mine has 300k and is still going strong.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
The sample should not look like Dexron III, it should look like ML as that is what the sample is/was; drained and submitted to Valvoline after the transmission failure.


Right. And I'm not sure I'd say that it looks like MaxLife after four pan drops. MaxLife doesn't have any zinc. Your sample had lots of iron, lead, copper, and some aluminum. Probably from a grenading part somewhere. But it also had some zinc, which is not consistent with Dexron III, or likely consistent with MaxLife. I've never seen a VOA of MaxLife ATF, but Valvoline's blue bottle Dex/Merc doesn't have zinc, so I doubt the MaxLife red bottle does either.

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I did have enough of the burnt fluid to send to Blackstone. Ended up dumping it. There was no reason to spend the money. I have no reason to believe that Valvoline did anything unscrupulous with the sample I sent. They said I was free to send in my own sample to whomever I wished but that any findings would change nothing. They said they would not honor any warranty, period. So why would I waste my money sending a sample to Blackstone?


Let me turn this discussion in a slightly different direction: is there anything physical in the transmission itself that would shed zinc if it were failing? A bearing, a clutch pack, etc.? Something HAS to explain the source of the zinc. If there is absolutely nothing in the transmission that would shed zinc, and we know (or are sure) that MaxLife doesn't have zinc in it (at least not at a concentration of 19 ppm), it's possible that there was lab error in that result. Hence the potential benefit of a second sample.

(I work in the environmental field, and taking duplicate samples is standard practice in the sampling industry. There doesn't have to be anything unscrupulous going on for there to be cross contamination or other error at the lab. Duplicate samples can help validate a lab analysis.)

 

[GearheadTool]

Oil Changer, just a question: Did the fluid look like it did in this shared video? Cleaner? Dirtier? Just trying to get a "feel" for what was in there.

I know people are grilling you about if it was Maxlife or not. I just wanted to point out that this is me.. draining Maxlife.

I am asking if your Maxlife (drained) looked anything like this or not. I do not know, and there have been no pictures.. So, i am asking, trying to establish some kind of point of reference. Was the fluid.. maybe WAY cleaner? MUCH dirtier? .. Thanks!

Here is me, draining my maxlife... mixed with "whatever was in there," which is the unknown. (Likely for the first time, since it looked like this on the 3rd drain and fill.. with Maxlife ATF, which is why I included this.)

Thank you.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I doubt that you would be so understanding or would be on such moral highground if it happened to you. Easy for you to say such things while on the other side of the fence.


The reason it is easy for me to say such things (and yes, with Moral High Ground, Thank You Very Much) is because my 4L60E went south at about the same mileage (75K) as yours, under the same easy driving as yours, and with far better maintenance. The difference between the two of us, sir, is that I did not make an indignant post on a prominent car maintenance site condemming whatever fluid I last put in it.

May I add that it is a fairly well known fact that this particular transmission can fail at any mileage, and that that fact was even specifically referenced in this thread? And that, as has also been pointed out, there is no history of Maxlife failures with this transmission. And you wonder why people won't buy into your contention that your case is somehow different. Yes, there is a first time for everything, but as of yet we haven't seen it.

 

[meep]

Originally Posted By: bourne
Originally Posted By: meep
I have had ML screw up a honda AT, to the chagrin of many ML followers... but the honda AT is a bit different from a Dexron unit.

Lol, I have to ask now, what happened ? And why do you think it was Maxlife that ruined the transmission ?

I ask because thats all I run in my Acura with one of the most problematic 5 speed autos Honda ever made. If its going to blow up I need to know .........

It happened 5-6 years ago in a crv we had--- late 90's maybe a 97 or 99? 4spd auto, before they started having trouble with them. It was a flawless vehicle and never gave us any trouble. At around 60,000 I swapped in about 8 qts of ML. It drove fine after, though the engagement in all gears was a touch more firm. No biggie.

It very slowly started exhibiting some rough shifts. They weren't rough at first. Maybe one or two were here and there, but it was so small at first it didn't seem like anything. The real symptom became hill climbs.... it'd over-rev, hang on to the lower gear, then ///slam/// into the next gear so hard it was like you got bumped from behind. It scared the **** out of my wife, the driver. It then started doing the same on level ground--- it'd hang on to second waaay too long.

I started thinking back and realized the first signs were after I did the change. I did 3 drain/fills with Z1. It immediately settled down, became driveable again, but it was never the same again--- it kept some of the rough shifts like it developed after a few weeks of ML.

M

 

[meep]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: meep
To the OP--- lots of good comments in this thread. I too feel like you did a good job and made good choices. I may have chosen to flush instead of multiple changes, or I could have done it your way, or even just one drain fill for now and the rest later.... everyone has their "favorite" and FWIW they all have their place--- your choices were fine. Even your choice of oil.

I have had ML screw up a honda AT, to the chagrin of many ML followers... but the honda AT is a bit different from a Dexron unit.

So--- I think your methodology was sound, as was your fluid choice. ATs do fail... and I'm in the camp thinking that the problem was already in its early stages, and if anything, you just hurried it along. Recent model Tahoes, rated for 7K+ lbs towing, are often seen failing at 150k with only light duty use. The GM 5.7L engine when through a rash of cam failures in the mid 2000's... even the Chevy trucks have a normal chance of breaking down, like every other mfr. Don't beat yourself up.

I did a full rehab of a clean but neglected town and country in 2011. Bought it and put it up on blocks for 3 months, working on it weekly. Included was a line flush, new filter, and magnefine filter. 1 year later (4000 miles, it's the weekend car), the solenoid pack failed. I suspect the same-- I helped it along. I used Castrol ATF +4, a fluid I've had good luck with.

So don't feel too bad about you or the vehicle-- it happens. You did good for trying to care for it.

M


The 5.7 Chevy's had a rash of cam failures in the mid 2000's? 1998 was the last year of a 5.7 in a Chevy truck. In 99 they went to the 5.3.
Was it the 5.3's that had cam failures. Mine has 300k and is still going strong.


sorry, 5.3. nothing as common as the intake manifolds on the V6's, but the cams would wear on the lobes. Not streaking wear but flat spotting, not visible to naked eye. doesn't take much on google to find it. Symptoms are small - occasional misfire, slightly rough idle. engine still runs and can tow just fine with it. However, to a picky owner, noticeable.

Went through this with a buddy's tahoe. dealer checked it, said cam, common problem, and wanted 3 grand to swap it. We walked away and took it to a local engine builder, who verified that it was the cam, and also said it was a common weak spot for that engine.

While the problem isn't so bad as to cause driveability problems, that came from both the dealer and an independent.

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
The OEM trans is no more; this was an R&R. We will never know what failed. All I know is that third and OD were gone.

My options were to tear the OEM down at some ridiculous dollar per hour or swap it out. I opted for the swap out. Much to my delight, the invoice stated they did a complete flush of the lines, cooler, and converter. Remember that this vehicle was bought in SoCal it came factory equipped with a cooler and the deep pan. Both filters had to be ordered as my local auto parts store only had standard pan filters in stock.


I can understand your frustration, but this sounds like the sun shell went out - it's a very common failure on the 4L6OE trannys. Happened to a buddies 2005 low mileage Tahoe coming bake from Lake Tahoe.

 

[PandaBear]

Assuming what you said here is what you did, I think the 19ppm of zinc you see in the report is really from the dirty oil drain pan or oil jug you use to store the old ATF to send to Ashland/Valvoline. Since you haven't done any fluid change in the past, it is either the original ATF or the Maxlife x4, rather than Honda DW1 or Z1.

Most likely, your transmission going south has nothing to do with Maxlife, but to really be sure you have to open it up to check for the failure condition and see what causes it. Is it a lube failure or control failure or clutch pack failure, would determine who would be paying for it (you, Ashland, or GM).

If it is already out of warranty, even if it is a GM production fault you'll end up paying.

I think without spending too much effort, the best you can do is complain to Ashland enough or sue them in small claim, that they feel like paying you off is more convenient and cheaper than going to fight you in court. $2700 in a business like Ashland is not a lot of money compare to defense cost. You are not suing 100k, not worth spending more than 14 hours lawyer time to fight you.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


Why won't Valvoline take a few seconds to update their website to put in writing IF MaxLife meets Honda DW1 specs?

I know why, because their product doesn't meet those specs AND they don't want to be liable for any potential damage done.


Do you "know" that to be true, or do you believe it? I'm guessing it's the latter, unless you have some direct knowledge of the inner workings at Ashland. I know that stating beliefs as facts is popular these days, but it doesn't make it so.

The OP stated his experience w/Maxlife and his transmission, and people can make their own determination, so kudos to him for explaining it in detail. I *believe* the fluid had nothing to do with it, given all of the circumstances. He believes differently, and that's cool. Making silly statements that you *know* Ashland is acting in an unscrupulous fashion sound like libel to me.