Recent Topics
2000 4Runner 3.4L
by ka9mnx. 09/25/18 08:59 AM
VW 508 Spec 0w20 Updates?
by Zee09. 09/25/18 08:36 AM
Laptop Recommendations
by buster. 09/25/18 08:24 AM
Mac OSX Mojave - vid card requirements
by OVERKILL. 09/25/18 08:05 AM
Age of first drive
by madRiver. 09/25/18 08:02 AM
Please, maintain your tires properly
by 53' Stude. 09/25/18 06:58 AM
Cycling health
by CourierDriver. 09/25/18 06:08 AM
Stupidest thing you've ever done (or not done)
by Speak2Mountain. 09/25/18 06:01 AM
First Time Hyundai Owner - Coolant Confusion
by tony1679. 09/25/18 05:16 AM
European Formula: Supertech and Mobil 1
by Snagglefoot. 09/25/18 02:19 AM
KFE brake pads?
by deoxy4. 09/25/18 01:16 AM
GM Marine Engine wont start
by Gito. 09/24/18 11:59 PM
New TV bad picture some channels part2
by raaizin. 09/24/18 10:46 PM
Another Bad PCM on a Buick 3.8L!
by clinebarger. 09/24/18 10:17 PM
Funny pictures thread
by JLTD. 09/24/18 08:40 PM
Redline 15w40: Low or Mid Saps?
by SavagePatch. 09/24/18 06:59 PM
What are these cables to?
by 99Eclipse. 09/24/18 06:44 PM
Newest Members
fortim, albert001, LG_Electronics, TCam, OzFrog
66063 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
87 registered members (Bailes1992, ArrestMeRedZ, BearZDefect, Ablebody, Blkstanger, Astro14, 9 invisible), 1,592 guests, and 33 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,981
Posts4,853,717
Members66,063
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
mineral base oils better in gear oils? #2855799
01/02/13 02:21 PM
01/02/13 02:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
friendly_jacek Offline OP
friendly_jacek  Offline OP
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
Quote:
High-quality mineral base oils perform well in most applications. In fact, mineral base oils typically have higher pressure-viscosity coefficients than common synthetics, allowing for greater film thickness at given operating viscosities.


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/926/gear-oils

News for me, even though I did have bad results with redline NS 75W90 oil.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2855828
01/02/13 02:46 PM
01/02/13 02:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 748
Mid Atlantic
229 Offline
229  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 748
Mid Atlantic
Jasper Engines thinks so. To keep their warranty on an axle assembly you buy from them they ask that you use the Shell dino gear oil that they send with the units. And they want you to use it on replacement also.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2855837
01/02/13 02:58 PM
01/02/13 02:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline
Jim Allen  Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
I keep hearing this but have never gotten a satisfactory explanation as to why. Gp II base oils do hold additives very well... possibly better than syns and gear oils are all about boundary lubrication so that's an important aspect. I'm not sure what "pressure-viscosity coefficients " are exactly but I guess that makes for an interesting bit of research.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2855849
01/02/13 03:03 PM
01/02/13 03:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,837
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,837
Illinois
My experience tells me that's balony. Most pickups come with synthetic gear lube in their diffs and also many big trucks(18 wheelers) come with synthetic gear lube as well. Synthetics will lower the diff temps, last much longer between changes, and reduce wear compared to dino. Now if dino was better wouldn't you think these manufactures would know that?


2007 Ford Fusion 232,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 55K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2856000
01/02/13 04:52 PM
01/02/13 04:52 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,112
Airlie Beach Australia
Doug Hillary Offline
Doug Hillary  Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,112
Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
friendly_jacek - Well all sorts of stories abound - this is the real World. I can tell you that my experiences over several decades debunks this arguement. That said, there may be certain applications (severe shock loading) where mineral based gear lubricants may have an advanyage

I my experience and in the experience of Eaton Corp (Reference back to 8/93) synthetic gear lubricants offer huge advantages over mineral gear lubricants. This relates to lowering operating temperatures and tolerating much higher operating temperatures. Seal life is greatly enhanced as is low temperature gear selection and with lower cold "drag"

This was confirmed by me in actual operations over many many millions of kiliometers in many vehicles and covering very low and very high loads/temps and in severe use applications. I had such lubricants in individual use for "whole of life" (up to around 2m kms) using UOAs and Manufacturer's condemnation OC levels

ZF and MB found this too many years ago in their heavy vehicle equipment/Divisions

Be careful what you read on the Internet......................be very careful about what you believe!!!


Regards
Doug
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2856018
01/02/13 05:09 PM
01/02/13 05:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
Magnolia, TX
INDYMAC Offline
INDYMAC  Offline
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,338
Magnolia, TX
As usual, people are commenting on a quote taken out of context. Read the whole article and learn how people decide what gear oil to use when no OEM recommendation is available for the machinery being used.


2013 Toyota Tundra DC 4X4 5.7L FFV
2012 Toyota 4Runner 2WD SR5
2004 Honda S2000
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2856155
01/02/13 06:44 PM
01/02/13 06:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,246
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,246
Iowegia - USA
To read the rest of the story see the accompanying article:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/586/viscosity-coefficient-bearing

and this one by Larry Ludwig of Schaeffer's:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/707/enclosed-gear-drives

Last edited by MolaKule; 01/02/13 06:50 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: MolaKule] #2856422
01/02/13 11:00 PM
01/02/13 11:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
friendly_jacek Offline OP
friendly_jacek  Offline OP
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
Thanks, reading some more, sounds like synthetic gear lubricants are superior at high or low temps, bur slightly inferior at mild to moderate temps near 50C. However, the difference is not huge and easily offset by increased OCI and efficiency.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2856439
01/02/13 11:55 PM
01/02/13 11:55 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,112
Airlie Beach Australia
Doug Hillary Offline
Doug Hillary  Offline
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,112
Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
friendly_jacek - The advantages of synthetic gear lubricanst are real for most users.
Suprisingly most diffs and gearboxes run quite cool - too cool in many cases IMO

Im my heavy trucks the "normal" temperatures were expected to be around 120C with the warning level at 150C. Mostly the semi-trailers were at 42.5t

In reality the average gearbox temp was 86C, front diff (tandem drive) 90C and the rear diff 94C. The maximum recorded was 100C on a long climb (ambient 28C) (gearbox and front diff) and the lowest was 60C (gearbox) on a flat road at 35C ambient

All ideal for synthetic lubricants - overall the ambients here ranged from -10C to 45C

When running synthetic gear lubricants over many years I never experienced any wheel bearing failures which are quite common in the trucking industry!


Last edited by Doug Hillary; 01/02/13 11:57 PM. Reason: Accuracy

Regards
Doug
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2857257
01/03/13 07:02 PM
01/03/13 07:02 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,206
Lakeside CA
another Todd Offline
another Todd  Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,206
Lakeside CA
Towing my enclosed trailer (8,000 lbs) back to San Diego with my motorhome (Ford F53 460 cu in, 4 speed auto, gearvendors)one very hot summer day I was in a big hurry and keeped it floored until I got to the top of the mountain grade, about 13 miles. I smelled a funny odor when I got home and looked underneath. The diff housing had turned a dark color from overheating and the sway bar bushings that bolt to it were melted. Amsoil 75-140 was in the diff and no ill effect came from it other than the melted bushgings. I looked at the oil and it looked like the day I put it in. I suspect mineral oil would have left my on the side of the road with destroyed gears.


2015 Ford F250 Diesel Crew Cab FX4
2017 Ford Escape 2.0
2002 GMC Yukon
2015 Hyundai Accent
2008 Yamaha Rhino 700 FI
Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2857303
01/03/13 07:36 PM
01/03/13 07:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,682
South Carolina
bmwtechguy Offline
bmwtechguy  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,682
South Carolina
A friend called today to tell me he got his 94 Dodge Ram 4WD truck back from a rear axle/transfercase/manual gearbox specialist guy I had sent him to locally. He was telling me how happy he was with the rear axle rebuild job that he had done. He mentioned that this guy did not believe in synthetic gear oils, and I remember this from before. He worked for Richmond gear in Liberty, SC for 30 years before going out on his own. He builds race axles, etc too. His work is excellent and prices reasonable.

He put a limited slip diff in another friend's 2500 Silverado and refilled with Lucas conventional gear oil. It was the non-clutch (gear only) type of LS unit, and it chattered like crazy on off ramps after a good hot run on the interstate. My friend replaced the Lucas with some of that synthetic purple gear oil and problem solved... never chattered again. He never called and told the builder like I suggested. I would think that would have been some useful feedback.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2857370
01/03/13 08:14 PM
01/03/13 08:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,682
South Carolina
bmwtechguy Offline
bmwtechguy  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,682
South Carolina
I have seen neglected, yet quiet diffs and gearboxes' lubes replaced with synthetic lubes and then leak or fail later. Not sure if the syn lube was involved or what. So, I much prefer to change lubes or replace with syn before lube degrades too far or too much wear material has built up in the lube and the unit. If an automotive diff has been neglected for 200k miles or more, it may be best to just keep it full and save money for the inevitable rebuild. It may just hold up until something else causes one to replace the vehicle.

Also, I like the Schaeffers Syhnthetic Plus 75W-90 GL-5. It is a blend of PAO and Group II or II+ I believe, so maybe it is the best of both worlds? It is by far my favorite GL-5 75W-90.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: Doug Hillary] #2857527
01/03/13 10:08 PM
01/03/13 10:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
friendly_jacek Offline OP
friendly_jacek  Offline OP
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary


Im my heavy trucks the "normal" temperatures were expected to be around 120C with the warning level at 150C. Mostly the semi-trailers were at 42.5t

In reality the average gearbox temp was 86C, front diff (tandem drive) 90C and the rear diff 94C. The maximum recorded was 100C on a long climb (ambient 28C) (gearbox and front diff) and the lowest was 60C (gearbox) on a flat road at 35C ambient



Like I said, over 60C synthetic are better. Under 60C, mineral are better.


Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2861519
01/07/13 02:37 PM
01/07/13 02:37 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
friendly_jacek Offline OP
friendly_jacek  Offline OP
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,605
southeast US
LOL, found good post on mineral gear oils here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1105621

Quote:
"IMHO the RedLine differential gear oil's are way too thin..... whether or not they say 90-140 or not. It doesnt have the 'film pressure strength' that is pretty manditory for a street driven chassis. My first experience with this was back in the late 80's during the "Corvette Challenge Series". RedLine was a sponsor and we tried their entire line to include their gear oils... but found we had to change the "Shock Proof" differential oil in it every race. Not to mention its running temperature was above acceptable limits. If you were to use it in a track car... Id say go for it. But yours isnt... so I wont.

The best lubericants I have found in the past 15+ years or so are:

Schaffer suspended moly, straight 90wt. (Passenger cars, front ends in 4x4, light duty, cold climate).
Schaffer ISO9000 suspended moly, straight 140wt (Passenger cars and trucks, street performance, rear in 4x4, heavy duty, all climate).
Schaffer ISO9000 suspended moly, straight 250wt (Trophy trucks,Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro Stock and maximum effort high HP applications, trucks up to 5ton).
TORCO SGO/RGO 85-140wt (If you really thought a multi viscosity really means something in a diff. BTW, it doesnt).
LE 704-9920 75-140wt (same as above).
Amsoil SG 75-140 (same as above).
Royal Purple 85-140wt (same as above).

The parrifin based oils are the ticket."


Spelling aside, that actually sums my bad experience with Redline 70W90 too.

Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek] #2861532
01/07/13 02:44 PM
01/07/13 02:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,246
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,246
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It's tough to find an oil that fixes mechanical problems.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™