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#2855799 - 01/02/13 01:21 PM mineral base oils better in gear oils?
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6605
Loc: southeast US
Quote:
High-quality mineral base oils perform well in most applications. In fact, mineral base oils typically have higher pressure-viscosity coefficients than common synthetics, allowing for greater film thickness at given operating viscosities.


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/926/gear-oils

News for me, even though I did have bad results with redline NS 75W90 oil.

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#2855828 - 01/02/13 01:46 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
229 Offline


Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Jasper Engines thinks so. To keep their warranty on an axle assembly you buy from them they ask that you use the Shell dino gear oil that they send with the units. And they want you to use it on replacement also.

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#2855837 - 01/02/13 01:58 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4562
Loc: NW Ohio
I keep hearing this but have never gotten a satisfactory explanation as to why. Gp II base oils do hold additives very well... possibly better than syns and gear oils are all about boundary lubrication so that's an important aspect. I'm not sure what "pressure-viscosity coefficients " are exactly but I guess that makes for an interesting bit of research.
_________________________
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Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#2855849 - 01/02/13 02:03 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13657
Loc: Illinois
My experience tells me that's balony. Most pickups come with synthetic gear lube in their diffs and also many big trucks(18 wheelers) come with synthetic gear lube as well. Synthetics will lower the diff temps, last much longer between changes, and reduce wear compared to dino. Now if dino was better wouldn't you think these manufactures would know that?
_________________________
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#2856000 - 01/02/13 03:52 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 5112
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
friendly_jacek - Well all sorts of stories abound - this is the real World. I can tell you that my experiences over several decades debunks this arguement. That said, there may be certain applications (severe shock loading) where mineral based gear lubricants may have an advanyage

I my experience and in the experience of Eaton Corp (Reference back to 8/93) synthetic gear lubricants offer huge advantages over mineral gear lubricants. This relates to lowering operating temperatures and tolerating much higher operating temperatures. Seal life is greatly enhanced as is low temperature gear selection and with lower cold "drag"

This was confirmed by me in actual operations over many many millions of kiliometers in many vehicles and covering very low and very high loads/temps and in severe use applications. I had such lubricants in individual use for "whole of life" (up to around 2m kms) using UOAs and Manufacturer's condemnation OC levels

ZF and MB found this too many years ago in their heavy vehicle equipment/Divisions

Be careful what you read on the Internet......................be very careful about what you believe!!!
_________________________
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#2856018 - 01/02/13 04:09 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2338
Loc: Magnolia, TX
As usual, people are commenting on a quote taken out of context. Read the whole article and learn how people decide what gear oil to use when no OEM recommendation is available for the machinery being used.
_________________________
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#2856155 - 01/02/13 05:44 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
To read the rest of the story see the accompanying article:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/586/viscosity-coefficient-bearing

and this one by Larry Ludwig of Schaeffer's:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/707/enclosed-gear-drives


Edited by MolaKule (01/02/13 05:50 PM)

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#2856422 - 01/02/13 10:00 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: MolaKule]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6605
Loc: southeast US
Thanks, reading some more, sounds like synthetic gear lubricants are superior at high or low temps, bur slightly inferior at mild to moderate temps near 50C. However, the difference is not huge and easily offset by increased OCI and efficiency.

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#2856439 - 01/02/13 10:55 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 5112
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
friendly_jacek - The advantages of synthetic gear lubricanst are real for most users.
Suprisingly most diffs and gearboxes run quite cool - too cool in many cases IMO

Im my heavy trucks the "normal" temperatures were expected to be around 120C with the warning level at 150C. Mostly the semi-trailers were at 42.5t

In reality the average gearbox temp was 86C, front diff (tandem drive) 90C and the rear diff 94C. The maximum recorded was 100C on a long climb (ambient 28C) (gearbox and front diff) and the lowest was 60C (gearbox) on a flat road at 35C ambient

All ideal for synthetic lubricants - overall the ambients here ranged from -10C to 45C

When running synthetic gear lubricants over many years I never experienced any wheel bearing failures which are quite common in the trucking industry!



Edited by Doug Hillary (01/02/13 10:57 PM)
Edit Reason: Accuracy
_________________________
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Doug

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#2857257 - 01/03/13 06:02 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
another Todd Offline


Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 2205
Loc: Lakeside CA
Towing my enclosed trailer (8,000 lbs) back to San Diego with my motorhome (Ford F53 460 cu in, 4 speed auto, gearvendors)one very hot summer day I was in a big hurry and keeped it floored until I got to the top of the mountain grade, about 13 miles. I smelled a funny odor when I got home and looked underneath. The diff housing had turned a dark color from overheating and the sway bar bushings that bolt to it were melted. Amsoil 75-140 was in the diff and no ill effect came from it other than the melted bushgings. I looked at the oil and it looked like the day I put it in. I suspect mineral oil would have left my on the side of the road with destroyed gears.
_________________________
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#2857303 - 01/03/13 06:36 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
bmwtechguy Offline


Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 2673
Loc: South Carolina
A friend called today to tell me he got his 94 Dodge Ram 4WD truck back from a rear axle/transfercase/manual gearbox specialist guy I had sent him to locally. He was telling me how happy he was with the rear axle rebuild job that he had done. He mentioned that this guy did not believe in synthetic gear oils, and I remember this from before. He worked for Richmond gear in Liberty, SC for 30 years before going out on his own. He builds race axles, etc too. His work is excellent and prices reasonable.

He put a limited slip diff in another friend's 2500 Silverado and refilled with Lucas conventional gear oil. It was the non-clutch (gear only) type of LS unit, and it chattered like crazy on off ramps after a good hot run on the interstate. My friend replaced the Lucas with some of that synthetic purple gear oil and problem solved... never chattered again. He never called and told the builder like I suggested. I would think that would have been some useful feedback.

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#2857370 - 01/03/13 07:14 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
bmwtechguy Offline


Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 2673
Loc: South Carolina
I have seen neglected, yet quiet diffs and gearboxes' lubes replaced with synthetic lubes and then leak or fail later. Not sure if the syn lube was involved or what. So, I much prefer to change lubes or replace with syn before lube degrades too far or too much wear material has built up in the lube and the unit. If an automotive diff has been neglected for 200k miles or more, it may be best to just keep it full and save money for the inevitable rebuild. It may just hold up until something else causes one to replace the vehicle.

Also, I like the Schaeffers Syhnthetic Plus 75W-90 GL-5. It is a blend of PAO and Group II or II+ I believe, so maybe it is the best of both worlds? It is by far my favorite GL-5 75W-90.

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#2857527 - 01/03/13 09:08 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: Doug Hillary]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6605
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary


Im my heavy trucks the "normal" temperatures were expected to be around 120C with the warning level at 150C. Mostly the semi-trailers were at 42.5t

In reality the average gearbox temp was 86C, front diff (tandem drive) 90C and the rear diff 94C. The maximum recorded was 100C on a long climb (ambient 28C) (gearbox and front diff) and the lowest was 60C (gearbox) on a flat road at 35C ambient



Like I said, over 60C synthetic are better. Under 60C, mineral are better.


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#2861519 - 01/07/13 01:37 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 6605
Loc: southeast US
LOL, found good post on mineral gear oils here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1105621

Quote:
"IMHO the RedLine differential gear oil's are way too thin..... whether or not they say 90-140 or not. It doesnt have the 'film pressure strength' that is pretty manditory for a street driven chassis. My first experience with this was back in the late 80's during the "Corvette Challenge Series". RedLine was a sponsor and we tried their entire line to include their gear oils... but found we had to change the "Shock Proof" differential oil in it every race. Not to mention its running temperature was above acceptable limits. If you were to use it in a track car... Id say go for it. But yours isnt... so I wont.

The best lubericants I have found in the past 15+ years or so are:

Schaffer suspended moly, straight 90wt. (Passenger cars, front ends in 4x4, light duty, cold climate).
Schaffer ISO9000 suspended moly, straight 140wt (Passenger cars and trucks, street performance, rear in 4x4, heavy duty, all climate).
Schaffer ISO9000 suspended moly, straight 250wt (Trophy trucks,Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro Stock and maximum effort high HP applications, trucks up to 5ton).
TORCO SGO/RGO 85-140wt (If you really thought a multi viscosity really means something in a diff. BTW, it doesnt).
LE 704-9920 75-140wt (same as above).
Amsoil SG 75-140 (same as above).
Royal Purple 85-140wt (same as above).

The parrifin based oils are the ticket."


Spelling aside, that actually sums my bad experience with Redline 70W90 too.

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#2861532 - 01/07/13 01:44 PM Re: mineral base oils better in gear oils? [Re: friendly_jacek]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It's tough to find an oil that fixes mechanical problems.

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