Full Synthetic and ZDDP.

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Originally Posted By: Pig
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Quaker state defy would work for you,as well as Amsoil makes an oil called z-rod but the cream of the crop for zddp is the brand red-line.
Before jumping on the synthetic bandwagon I suggest reading the articles written by dnewton on the home page.
First off consider how the engine will be operated and under what weather conditions. Most every sbc engine will do just fine on a 30 grade oil. Now if it's a summer car a 10w-30 shows great used oil analysis' and if you are going to use syn Amsoil's sso line shows to be nearly shear proof in even the most demanding applications.
I like the pennzoil line of oils. I'm using pennzoil platinum in my hemi right now and have no issues whatsoever.
Do you have an oil cooler. If so I would consider trying a 20 grade. As pong as you have 10 pounds per 1000 rpms of oil pressure that's more than adequate. Remember your oil pressure gauge shows how resistant to flow your oil is and thinner oil actually has more volume going through the engine at any given speed.
I think we need to know more about how this engine will be operated before an accurate and suitable recommendation can be had.
But in a performance engine I would go with royal purples hps line. It has elevated zddp levels and red-line is another fine choice however you could be just as well served with pennzoil yellow bottle.
Remember,synthetics don't really shine unless you are extending the oil change interval or you are putting the engine under serious stress,like auto-cross,or it will be operated in extreme cold. Otherwise,as dnewton's articles show,a conventional will be more than enough protection.
You really should read the articles on the front home page. They will bring you to a point of actually understanding what alot of our members are going to say. They will help you to know what the heck these guys are saying,and they are a wealth of info.

And welcome to bitog.



It's a torque truck. 330hp, 550ft lbs torque. Used to haul between 2000-5000 in the bed, hauling a triple axle horse trailer. Temperature swings from -10 to 110 sea level to 10000 ft. Synthetic oil resists the breakdown a lil better than conventional hence why its used in my other vehicles. My vehicles are driven hard.


If you're looking for an oil that will provide protection year-round under those operating conditions, you're definitely looking for a top-quality synthetic. Redline, AMSoil Z-Rod, Joe Gibbs Hot Rod 30, and Royal Purple HPS are all high-zddp full-synthetics that would do the job, but since you don't want to send away for a boutique oil, those seem to be out of the question. Rotella T6 would be a good choice, but it is a mixed-fleet diesel oil that has a large amount of Magnesium-based detergents, which are not necessarily good for a heavily-loaded gasoline engine.

For someone looking for a readily-available high-zddp oil, I normally recommend Valvoline VR1 10w30, which is available at most NAPA's. The problem is that VR1 is not a synthetic. I think it would work well if you have an oil cooler and oil temp gage on your truck, and can assure that oil temp doesn't exceed 285F.

The next possiblity is to buy a low-zddp SM or SN-spec synthetic oil that is readily available, and use a zddp additive to boost the antiwear capability. ZDDPlus (and others) are available for this, but you're buying an expensive synthetic, and then increasing its cost by adding an expensive additive. By the time you have done that, you should have just bought the expensive boutique oil.

Brad Penn makes a unique 0w30 semi-synthetic oil that has all of the zddp you need, but I don't know if it is readily available in New Mexico. I think that it is mostly available in the eastern half of the US.

My personal favorite is Redline 5w30.
 
OK, we got off topic. In my area, they dont have proper stock of anything including parts, fluids, and the like. Almost anything you get has to be ordered out at aroud 3-7 days. The camshaft I got specifically stated in their installation sheet that ZDDP be used to ensure proper operation.

I do not use credit/debit cards so anything that has to be ordered, I cannot get unless I go to my parts house and pay cash to order first.

The intital question is which synthetics are compatible to be mixed with ZDDP since I have a good line on local resources for both. Local oils would be Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, yes even Pennzoil(though I will never run that oil in any of my engines), Royal Purple, and certain local store brands that I am not particularly fond of. Are any of these oils in their synthetic blends compatible to be mixed with ZDDP?
 
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.



I have found the VR1 only in 20W50. Since we do get into the 0F temp area, The 10W30 VR1 oil is not local.

I have ties with parts houses is the reason why I am asking about the full synthetic. I can get this oil alot cheaper than if Joe Blow walks in off the street. The ZDDP I have sourced is a 24oz container good for 2 oil changes and thats at $13. With my average cost being $5 per qt for synthetic(depending on brand), I woiuld like to stick with a brand of oil that I can get regularly and consistantly.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pig
OK, we got off topic. In my area, they dont have proper stock of anything including parts, fluids, and the like. Almost anything you get has to be ordered out at aroud 3-7 days. The camshaft I got specifically stated in their installation sheet that ZDDP be used to ensure proper operation.

I do not use credit/debit cards so anything that has to be ordered, I cannot get unless I go to my parts house and pay cash to order first.

The intital question is which synthetics are compatible to be mixed with ZDDP since I have a good line on local resources for both. Local oils would be Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, yes even Pennzoil(though I will never run that oil in any of my engines), Royal Purple, and certain local store brands that I am not particularly fond of. Are any of these oils in their synthetic blends compatible to be mixed with ZDDP?


All oils will be miscible with a ZDDP additive. Go ahead and choose whatever synthetic you want and add the additive to it. What ZDDP additive did you find?

What most people here are trying to convey is that you may not need to mess with an additive if you pick the appropriate oil to start with. In that vein, I'd suggest Mobil 1 0W-40. Yes, it is for European cars but it has 1100-1200 ppm ZDDP and will be an appropriate oil for year-round use,it's certainly a full synthetic, and it's not Pennzoil (not that there's anything wrong with Pennzoil).
 
If you are going to use an additive, pick whatever synthetic and go with it.

If you want a synthetic that already has enough ZDDP from the get go, Rotella T6 5w-40 is great oil at a reasonable price and is commonly available.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.


No. There is VR1, which is conventional, and VR1 Synthetic. VR1 Synthetic has 1000 ppm of Phosphorous, which indicates how much zddp is in it. VR1 conventional has 1300 ppm of Phosphorous. The OP wants a high-zddp oil, which in my book, starts at 1200 ppm P.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.


No. There is VR1, which is conventional, and VR1 Synthetic. VR1 Synthetic has 1000 ppm of Phosphorous, which indicates how much zddp is in it. VR1 conventional has 1300 ppm of Phosphorous. The OP wants a high-zddp oil, which in my book, starts at 1200 ppm P.


I am not looking for an oil with high ZDDP. I am looking to see which full synthetics are compatible with a ZDDP additive. I have researched and found a couple posts indicating that some synthetics and their compositions are not friendly to synthetics, but no reasons as to why and which blends.

Figured if there was an oil question to ask, it would be here.
 
Additives are generally frowned upon here because they're not certified by any body like the API. Nobody can be completely sure what's in them and how they'll alter the performance of an oil.

That being said, all motor oils that you'd buy off the shelf have ZDDP already, just in varying amounts. Modern passenger car oils have about 600-800 ppm. HDEOs like the recommended Rotella T6 have about 1200. So, if you found an additive that was entirely ZDDP, it would be compatible with any oil. The problem is not knowing what exactly is in the additive.

So, why take the risk of using an additive when there is oil out there that will work without it? Rotella T6 has enough zinc already to meet your needs. A gallon of it at Wal-Mart costs about $21. You could add more ZDDP to it if you wanted to, but without knowing the contents of your additive, it may very well alter the performance unfavorably.
 
you could try MaxLife as it is a bit thicker and stouter than most 5W-30 and 10W-30s

another option is any good dino 10W-30 like Valv white (VWB), or Penz yellow bottle (PYB)
cry.gif
and add a bottle of LiquiMoly from napa

i would run syn 6K and dino 4K in something pushed like that motor
 
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
Originally Posted By: Pig
OK, we got off topic. In my area, they dont have proper stock of anything including parts, fluids, and the like. Almost anything you get has to be ordered out at aroud 3-7 days. The camshaft I got specifically stated in their installation sheet that ZDDP be used to ensure proper operation.

I do not use credit/debit cards so anything that has to be ordered, I cannot get unless I go to my parts house and pay cash to order first.

The intital question is which synthetics are compatible to be mixed with ZDDP since I have a good line on local resources for both. Local oils would be Mobil 1, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, yes even Pennzoil(though I will never run that oil in any of my engines), Royal Purple, and certain local store brands that I am not particularly fond of. Are any of these oils in their synthetic blends compatible to be mixed with ZDDP?


All oils will be miscible with a ZDDP additive. Go ahead and choose whatever synthetic you want and add the additive to it. What ZDDP additive did you find?

What most people here are trying to convey is that you may not need to mess with an additive if you pick the appropriate oil to start with. In that vein, I'd suggest Mobil 1 0W-40. Yes, it is for European cars but it has 1100-1200 ppm ZDDP and will be an appropriate oil for year-round use,it's certainly a full synthetic, and it's not Pennzoil (not that there's anything wrong with Pennzoil).


I agree with that, BUT if you are a Mobil lover, then their turbo diesel truck oil might be better.
Not every flat tappet engine needs high Zinc levels, the ones that suffered most were re-built engines where very cheap poor quality non OEM parts were used.
Blackstones did some tests on towing and it showed no difference in UOA results. Severe service is mostly a matter of time in traffic or dirty air and so I don't think there is a need for a full synthetic oil in this case. Once you get off the synthetic band wagon there are plenty of oils with enough Zinc in. If it's an old leaky engine the HM oils as well as the HDEO's have enough.
I would not recommend using a can of galvanising snake oil with a full synthetic, as it's very hard to know if the Zinc will get deposited correctly.
 
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red line oils plus use their break in oil additive for alot more zddp and phos,its a full synthetic additive and only takes 4 oz.for a 5 qt sump to boost your zddp ( i have a sheet from red line that shows the amts to use for different sumps) by 552ppm and phos. 458 ppm so by the time you add the additive there will be about 1882 ppm in zddp and 1658ppm of phos.with all red line oils accept their racing oils the zddp and phos are alot higher..this additive works with any conventional or synthetic oils.
 
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Skyship,
Scroll down to the post by our member"FSSKIER" and see his experience with M1 0-20 in a Ford Rscort of the mid 90s spec'd for 5-30.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=170703&Number=2541148


M1 is a fairly high 20 and it was changed early so there is not much of a difference to a 30 grade.
There is no point looking at individual cases with no control done to cross check results, what you should be looking at are cases where the oil was changed between 2 different viscosities several times along with detailed UOA reports. I've looked at enough of those reports to know that what is going on with oil recommendations in the US is very wrong.
Even with a full UOA test on different oil grades the results do still depend of driver style and useage. The VW TDI high wear metal figures that were partly the result of lack of Zinc and partly the result of using 30 grade oil in blocks where 40 was the original grade showed that about half the engines had reduced wear metal figures on 40 grade and the other half showed no difference, even though the age and mileage of the engines in that survey were similar. That difference was determined to be driver style related, not useage and was caused by high cylinder head temps shearing the oil to a lower grade.
You should also compare oils with similar base stock and add packs, because a bad 5/30 will shear down to a 20, whilst a good 0/20 might well stay in grade, so there will be little difference. It would be easier to compare an 0/20 with an 0/40 to some extent, but you still have to take into account the add pack quality.
 
Originally Posted By: Pig
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.


No. There is VR1, which is conventional, and VR1 Synthetic. VR1 Synthetic has 1000 ppm of Phosphorous, which indicates how much zddp is in it. VR1 conventional has 1300 ppm of Phosphorous. The OP wants a high-zddp oil, which in my book, starts at 1200 ppm P.


I am not looking for an oil with high ZDDP. I am looking to see which full synthetics are compatible with a ZDDP additive. I have researched and found a couple posts indicating that some synthetics and their compositions are not friendly to synthetics, but no reasons as to why and which blends.

Figured if there was an oil question to ask, it would be here.


Then spend some time checking out this website:

http://www.zddplus.com/

It has a lot of good discussion about exactly what you want to do. It also gives details on how much additive to put in your engine to achieve the correct concentration of zddp. I have used ZDDPlus in the past to boost a gallon of low-zddp Premium Blue for my diesel Dodge. The engine is still running, so it must be not all bad...
 
Originally Posted By: Pig
I am almost finished with the break in of this engine. Used the Comp Cams 10W30 Break In Oil.


There are plenty of good suggestions in the thread already. Another would be Comp Cams' own ZDDP additive, assuming you can find it at a sensible price. Toss it in with whatever oil you prefer.

If you're not stuck on synthetic, VR1 can be had in other viscosities, at least in their non-synthetic varieties. Your local NAPA (if you have one) might be able to get you whatever isn't normally stocked there.
 
Originally Posted By: Pig
Amsoil is not available in my area and I am of the impatient type not to wait for oil to be snail mailed on the back of a 3 legged horse just cause they deem engine oil to be hazmat.

I know there are various engine oils out there that have the ZDDP in it, but it's more scarce than hens teeth. Hence why I am looking for a compatible full synthetic that will blend well with the ZDDP.

As an ASE Master Cert Tech with Factory Certs, I can tell you from personal exp. that Pennzoil was the sole cause of launched engines due to excessive wax build up. The VW/Audi 1.8Turbos do not like this oil and I have seen wax build up on the heads and I worked at a dealer where we had over 180 engines nuke. About 10% were Pennzoil cars based off of maintenance records and VW engineers said it wasn't oil but wax. Personally rebuilding engines cause of Pennzoil has made me distrust the brand.

Well you said it yourself , improper maintenance. The VW/Audi 1.8T require vw 502spec oils. These are thicker synthetics , thick 30 weight to 40 weight oils with a HTHS of 3.5 or greater. Of course a conventional oil which is run to a VW oci is going to sludge , especially on the sludge prone 1.8T. Any conventional oil stessed in such a environment will sludge be it Castrol , Valvoline or Pennzoil . It is not Pennzoil the oils fault rather the maintenance neglect, further more if you really want to get into it Pennzoil is perhaps the best conventional oil on the market. Instead of distrusting the oil for blown motors , distrust the engineers who spec such long oil change intervals or the consumer/dealers for not using the correct oil.Pennzoil aint the problem Sir.
 
Originally Posted By: Thax
Originally Posted By: Pig
Amsoil is not available in my area and I am of the impatient type not to wait for oil to be snail mailed on the back of a 3 legged horse just cause they deem engine oil to be hazmat.

I know there are various engine oils out there that have the ZDDP in it, but it's more scarce than hens teeth. Hence why I am looking for a compatible full synthetic that will blend well with the ZDDP.

As an ASE Master Cert Tech with Factory Certs, I can tell you from personal exp. that Pennzoil was the sole cause of launched engines due to excessive wax build up. The VW/Audi 1.8Turbos do not like this oil and I have seen wax build up on the heads and I worked at a dealer where we had over 180 engines nuke. About 10% were Pennzoil cars based off of maintenance records and VW engineers said it wasn't oil but wax. Personally rebuilding engines cause of Pennzoil has made me distrust the brand.

Well you said it yourself , improper maintenance. The VW/Audi 1.8T require vw 502spec oils. These are thicker synthetics , thick 30 weight to 40 weight oils with a HTHS of 3.5 or greater. Of course a conventional oil which is run to a VW oci is going to sludge , especially on the sludge prone 1.8T. Any conventional oil stessed in such a environment will sludge be it Castrol , Valvoline or Pennzoil . It is not Pennzoil the oils fault rather the maintenance neglect, further more if you really want to get into it Pennzoil is perhaps the best conventional oil on the market. Instead of distrusting the oil for blown motors , distrust the engineers who spec such long oil change intervals or the consumer/dealers for not using the correct oil.Pennzoil aint the problem Sir.




+1, well said.
 
Originally Posted By: Thax
It is not Pennzoil the oils fault rather the maintenance neglect, further more if you really want to get into it Pennzoil is perhaps the best conventional oil on the market.


Absolutely. If one uses the wrong oil, is it the fault of the oil that there was a problem? VW/Audi problems were primarily because owners and lube jockeys would not read the manual, or even appropriately cut an OCI due to using the wrong oil out of being "cheap." And we did have dealers up here using the wrong oil in VW, and the dealers should know better. Of course, a VW 1.8T wouldn't like PYB 5w-30. It's not the specified lube, particularly for long German OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Valvoline VR1 comes as a Dino AND synthetic. The synthetic 10w-30 sounds like the oil you are looking for. Available at most auto stores.


No. There is VR1, which is conventional, and VR1 Synthetic. VR1 Synthetic has 1000 ppm of Phosphorous, which indicates how much zddp is in it. VR1 conventional has 1300 ppm of Phosphorous. The OP wants a high-zddp oil, which in my book, starts at 1200 ppm P.


Aren't you saying the exact same thing?
 
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