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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: dave1251] #5091241 04/30/19 06:29 AM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings all:

I find it rather laughable when I hear people suggest that the 5.7 Hemi lifter/camshaft failures are a rare thing. It is quite common and getting much worse.

My name is Joseph and I have a 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi 5.7 that started the infamous "hemi-tick" at about 90,000 miles give or take. Since it was under warranty at the time, I took it to the local Dodge Servicing department in Sumter SC. They replaced a coil pack, all 16 spark plugs, and supposedly did an intake induction cleaning and fuel system flush. Total cost to me was $988 bucks. That's the most expensive tune-up I've ever seen, especially considering the same services were advertised on their own board for about $300 bucks. Personally, I suspect they did more than that and it's my suspicion that changed out a bad lifter despite the possibility of a bad camshaft lobe. They knew our warranty was about to expire so they did the bare minimum to turn the truck back out to me with the hidden repair they did. I know that Chrysler is telling their service departments to hide the camshaft lifter failures if at all possible in order to minimize public awareness.

To get to my point, at about 104,000 miles, the "hemi-tick" came back and eventually turned into a loud knock. Since the warranty was expired, I tore into the engine myself (I'm a retired AF aircraft mechanic), 36 years of automotive repair, and even paint and body repair. So my mechanical skills are not lacking to say the least, without which I would not have been able to sustain my 1999 Chevy Suburban 5.7 Vortec for as long as I have, and still running strong. Sure she's needed work along the way, but she still goes strong. Just for giggles and fun, I pulled the Suburban's engine 3 years ago and did a complete overhaul, bottom and top. The rings were still solid, cross-hatches still visible, and no ridge around the bore-tips. And the camshaft and lifters looked beautiful, despite neglected oil changes (on the Suburban) at times, and about 225,000 miles. The only degredation I noted were my intake and exhaust valves which were all pitted, so I replaced the valves and lapped them in my garage. To-date, 297,000 miles on my baby and she's still pulling roughly 6,000 pounds of horse trailer (with horses).

I can't say that for my Ram. With only 114,000 miles, the #8 cylinder lifter was destroyed and the roller and needle bearings were missing. Naturally I've got to drop the oil pan to remove all possible debris. Cylinder's 4 and 6 MDS lifters were also damaged as each of its rollers were severely chaffed. I noticed that both MDS lifters for 4 and 6 were not appropriately locked on center as the lock-tabs were twisted to the side, thus causing the rollers to spin somewhat at an angle. This no doubt caused the damage to the lifter rollers for cylinders 4 and 6. Cylinder number 8 however was completely dry with little to no oil, and it's roller is toast, and the camshaft lobe for all 3 cylinders mentioned (passenger side) are destroyed.

WHAT'S CAUSING THE PROBLEM?

This is something I've yet to see anyone explain. Mind you I am a [censored] good troubleshooting mechanic (all thanks to the USAF), and here then is my diagnosis. MDS lifters require oil pressure to expand into the locked position. This temporarily robs the oil supply volume just long enough to lock the lifters into place. Once locked, oil pressure is dispersed evenly respective of the applicable lubed component of the engine. Unfortunately, when you have 1 or more MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is lost to the rest of the engine (not all pressure but enough to cause oil starvation). This would explain why the intake lifters for cylinder's 2 and 8 were nearly dry, while cyilnder's 4 and 6 intake MDS lifters were saturated with oil since both of these lifters failed to lock. When an MDS lifter fails to lock due to internal failure of the PLASTIC (did I mention plastic?) keepers, oil pressure continues to attempt to lock the lifter, which of course never happens due to the failure, and this robs the engine of oil to the rest of the valve-train. Lifters that fail to lock also cause the infamous "Hemi-tick". So NO the Hemi-tick is not a good thing and NO it is not normal.

SOLUTION:

Dump the MDS system. This requires camshaft replacement-upgrade to a non-MDS system, installation for solid lifters with heavier duty rollers, removal and plugging of the MDS oil solenoids, and a PCM flash for MDS deactivation. The 5.7 Hemi is a rather easier engine to work on. I found the fan-clutch to be a little more difficult to remove than usual; that is until I realized that after 2007 (or 2009), the fan clutch is not leftee-loossie, righty-tighty, but rather righty-loosie and lefty-tighty. The rest is not that difficult. You will likely find the exhaust manifold heat-shield bolts broken. I suggest not putting that wasted product back on. Switch out to headers if you choose, or simply leave the exhaust manifold exposed. There is nothing nearby that will be damaged from heat. The driver side exhaust manifold is a little bit pesky to takeoff due to the steering column shaft. Or better yet, leave the exhaust manifold on the heads and disconnect the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I chose to remove them in case my heads needed to be worked.

Summary: The MDS lifters are failing to lock and robbing the engine of oil pressure. This is especially worsened by those who might have a nasty habit of idling the engine too long. The loss of oil pressure, especially at idle, causes oil-starvation to the rest of the valve train of the specific bank (1 - driver side / 2 - passenger side) and causing the lifters to fail at the rollers. Once the rollers are damaged, the camshaft lobes will eventually be wiped out. Lastly, I will not be using 5W-20 as the dealership has been using, and yes (for the record), we've maintained appropriate oil-change maintenance, and yet still suffered catastrophic failure. I will be switching over to 5W-30 synthetic once I've completed the upgrade.

I hope this helps anyone else out there. You do not have to agree, but I'm almost certain my prognosis is 100% percent correct. The dry #8 lifter caused by lost oil pressure due to lifters 4 and 6 MDS lifters hogging oil pressure, is clear indication of what's causing the lifter rollers to fail, and thus leading to unfortunate camshaft destruction. #8 lifter was destroyed due to oil-starvation, and lifters 4 and 6 were damaged due to failing to lock on-center leading to excessive oil supply attempts at locking the lifter into place.


The HEMI failure rate is about 11 per 1,000 manufactured. What is your theory of idle operation cause a greater chance of failure?

Also for some reason your posting style and adding off subject information to strength your point is familiar.


My style of posting looks familiar. LOL Well it's me...Joseph if that rings a bell.

If a Hemi engine has MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is wasted on those lifters which robs the rest of the valve train of oil. So idling the engine especially with lost oil pressure towards failed MDS lifters is making the problem much worse.

Joe

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OilUzer] #5091244 04/30/19 06:31 AM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: ofelas] #5091246 04/30/19 06:33 AM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091267 04/30/19 06:51 AM
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ofelas Online Content
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This makes me intensely curious about what grade of oil is ideal to ensure the Cummins lifters are properly pumped up.

I use 15w40 Amsoil AME, perhaps I should try Rotella T6 5w40.

I believe Dodge recommends 5w40.


R12 in the summer, Webasto in the winter, and cassette tapes all year.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5091489 04/30/19 11:08 AM
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burla Offline
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Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OilUzer] #5091502 04/30/19 11:27 AM
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burla Offline
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Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


It can, it does, it goes way past assuming it does, but it is also one particular redline formula over the others, 5w30 redline. Link to another members video's documenting as much,
redline 5w30 tested against many other oils.

And specifically when I tried redline 10w30 the tick came back, not as harsh as before using redline, but I video'd that as well. Once again, many people are documenting this, at some point maybe the oil guys should consider this is a thing. believe your ears.. Whatever the dealer used had my trucking ticking at a 10 rating on a tick scale, redline 10w30 had it ticking about a 3, redline 5w30 has the engine butter smooth for going on 7-8 years. redline 5w30 is hemi honey for sure.

my truck redline 10w30



redline 5w30


Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: burla] #5091644 04/30/19 01:17 PM
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Posts: 12,275
dave1251 Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.



Redlines base oil is not polar. What does a friction modifier have to do with wear?


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: dave1251] #5091694 04/30/19 02:15 PM
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burla Offline
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Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by OilUzer
@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?


I've red that red line helps the engine. But to me, with solid non-mds, 5W-30 should work just fine. IMHO, non weighted engine oil is insufficient to lucubrate a high-performance engine.


So thinking doesn't come into play with us who have dealt with this since 2010 and have been posting about since 2011. Many different guys well over 50, many different strategies, many different oils, many different weights including 0w40 PUP in a mds engine. Some better then others, but trust me nobody prefers to buy redline 5w30, it is the most expensive oil of all of them tested, but if you look at the formula there is a reason it is working better then others more then just visc, high moly, high zinc, polar base oil, brached chain lubrication of pao. Interesting thing is 10w30 redline has no vii's and yet 5w30 redline is better at killing the ticks, they must use a different base oil setup with their 5w30, noted by the extra hths of that product, which yes I do realize is viscosity but only part of the picture. So "we" believe viscosity does play a part and a significant one, but so does all of the rest of the formula. So main point, try other oils first, many of them, maybe one will work and that would be cool. But keep in back of your mind, well I tried 3 oils and if none of those worked, try redline 5w30 with a synthetic filter. It has helped many of hemis. If I had to make a guess at what other oils had half way decent chance at tick killing there have been a couple, qsud and if you look at moly level 160 makes sense, PUP 0w40 seams to be many guys second choice to redline 5w30 in the mds engine that is ticking and again moly level over 250 makes sense, I can't think of others off hand, but if I was avoiding paying redline dollars and wanted to kill my ticking engine I'd start there. Many uoa's on the 0w40 PUP on board, most of the time the visc ends up in the 11's cSt, so I wouldn't worry about it being too thick even in a mds engine, many guys are running it w/o any issues or any cel's.



Redlines base oil is not polar. What does a friction modifier have to do with wear?



What does wear have to do with hemi tick? Where you talking to me?

as for polarity.. from BITOG
link

2) Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5091710 04/30/19 02:39 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe


Here's a 6.1L (non-MDS) with the same failure:
https://www.lxforums.com/board/the-...ter-failure-2010-6-1-srt-challenger.html

And another, this one in a 2009 SRT8 Grand Cherokee:
https://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums...dealer-service/194594-broken-lifter.html

It's not an MDS-exclusive issue, it's simply that most engines are MDS, so that's going to be the largest cross-section, and thus the largest group affected. It also seems significantly less common on the SRT engines (my dealer has never had to do lifters on an SRT mill), which my theory is, ties into them having heavier valve springs. I think once they get some miles on them, the springs weaken enough to allow a bit of float, which hammers the needle bearings in the rollers, which causes them to fail. An oil with extremely high levels of anti-wear additives may be effective in mitigating this somewhat, though it certainly doesn't "fix" the problem.

I also can't see an MDS lifter failing "open" providing enough oil bypass that it starves the lifters on the other cylinders. The biggest controlled leak is the side leakage on the crankshaft bearings, which would dwarf any leakage on a lifter. If the leak was big enough to cause a loss of oil pressure, that would be observable in the SRT menu for example, but from the accounts I've read, folks with the tick and failed lifters still had normal oil pressure.

Another theory is that there may be a design issue where there is simply insufficient supply at idle to the lifters (all of them), which may cause them to stick every so slightly in their bores. Combined with weak stock springs, you create a situation like float where the needle bearings get hammered by the lobe, causing the roller to stop rolling and this results in rapid lobe/lifter failure. This could of course affect both MDS and non-MDS engines.

There have been several theories floated, and of course the vast majority of engines never experience the issue, so it may just be inconsistent parts quality from the manufacturer of the lifters as well.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OVERKILL] #5091874 04/30/19 05:20 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by JosephA
Originally Posted by ofelas
Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.



Interesting. I've not heard of any non-MDS Hemi's losing camshafts and lifters. I spoke to one of the mechanics at the local Dodge dealership and he told me that only MDS hemi's are failing in the RAM and the Charger. I've heard that some of the Durango's also utilize the MDS system, and so I've read of failures happening on those as well.

To-date, no NON-MDS system hemi has suffered these failures.

Joe


Here's a 6.1L (non-MDS) with the same failure:
https://www.lxforums.com/board/the-...ter-failure-2010-6-1-srt-challenger.html

And another, this one in a 2009 SRT8 Grand Cherokee:
https://www.cherokeesrt8.com/forums...dealer-service/194594-broken-lifter.html

It's not an MDS-exclusive issue, it's simply that most engines are MDS, so that's going to be the largest cross-section, and thus the largest group affected. It also seems significantly less common on the SRT engines (my dealer has never had to do lifters on an SRT mill), which my theory is, ties into them having heavier valve springs. I think once they get some miles on them, the springs weaken enough to allow a bit of float, which hammers the needle bearings in the rollers, which causes them to fail. An oil with extremely high levels of anti-wear additives may be effective in mitigating this somewhat, though it certainly doesn't "fix" the problem.

I also can't see an MDS lifter failing "open" providing enough oil bypass that it starves the lifters on the other cylinders. The biggest controlled leak is the side leakage on the crankshaft bearings, which would dwarf any leakage on a lifter. If the leak was big enough to cause a loss of oil pressure, that would be observable in the SRT menu for example, but from the accounts I've read, folks with the tick and failed lifters still had normal oil pressure.

Another theory is that there may be a design issue where there is simply insufficient supply at idle to the lifters (all of them), which may cause them to stick every so slightly in their bores. Combined with weak stock springs, you create a situation like float where the needle bearings get hammered by the lobe, causing the roller to stop rolling and this results in rapid lobe/lifter failure. This could of course affect both MDS and non-MDS engines.

There have been several theories floated, and of course the vast majority of engines never experience the issue, so it may just be inconsistent parts quality from the manufacturer of the lifters as well.


I could be wrong, but the 6.1 in the Challenger came with MDS, but was unavailable for the 6.4 Hemi until about 2011. So I believe the first one was an 6.1 MDS engine which became available in 2009'ish.

The Grand Cherokee I believe also came with MDS around 2005, so the second link posted might have been an MDS engine. I might have missed any comment or post from the provided links wherein they specifically mentioned if their engine was either an MDS or non-MDS engine.

I can see your theory as well, and it is sound. And you might be right. But to me, if that were the case, I would have seen lifters failing on Bank 1 and not limited solely to bank 2 (again on my engine). The intake lifter for cylinder #2 was slightly wet, and had minimal chaffing. The MDS intake lifter on #4 was twisted and unlocked, with the locking pin shifted to the left side within the lifter. It was soaked heavily with engine oil. The intake lifter for #6 was also shifted in the unlocked position and its locking pin was off to the side as well (off-center), and it too was soaked in engine oil. Then finally, the destroyed lifter on #8 was nearly bone dry and not even the springs were wet. That thus told me that cylinders #2 and #8 intake lifters were not getting enough oil, meanwhile the 2 MDS lifters (#4 and #6) were soaked in engine oil. So careful examination seems to suggest insufficient oil to the non MDS lifters on Bank 2, while more than ample oil on the MDS lifters (Bank 2). This is why my theory concluded that the reason for failure had to do with the MDS lifters robbing engine oil pressure just on the bank 2 valve train system. I did not mean to suggest that the rest of the engine suffered oil starvation; only the valve train system will likely be impacted when an MDS lifter fails to lock. An unlocked lifter when it should be locked will lead to wasted oil pressure on the specific MDS lifter, and thereby reduce the amount of oil pressure to the rest of the valve train on the same bank. Keep in mind this does not mean that the rest of the engine would suffer oil loss.

I will have to look at the plumbing galley for the hemi engine. I know the oil pump is at the bottom and a tube feeds Bank 1, and a separate tube feeds bank 2. The first valve train to receive oil is from the first cylinder to the last cylinder of the applicable banks. Otherwise, it makes no sense trying to understand why 2 lifters on Bank 2 were heavily soaked with oil, but the other 2 lifters (intake lifters) were nearly dry.

Lastly, I have motored this engine at idle with the valve covers off, and I saw the same results. Oil oozed out near the center of the head on Bank 2 (Passenger side), but nothing on Cylinder 8, and very little on cylinder 2.

At the same time, I can see a valve train issue with soft springs, leading to lifter float, and that of course would cause roller damage. I can only surmise that the reason Chrysler engineers chose to use softer spring loads is to minimize the valve seat stress on the aluminum heads, and also decrease drag in order to enhance fuel efficiency.

Maybe this is all the result of flawed lifters from what ever country they were manufactured. But I'm not convinced this is the case because we would see random lifters dropping out all over the engine, and impacting nearly every hemi engine. Thus, I believe this is primarily limited to the MDS engines, and possibly some non-MDS engines suffering failure. But this I am convinced of. So far, all who have upgarded their hemi's to the Comp-Camshaft, Hellcat lifters, oil plugs, and ECM flash, have not had a repeat of camshaft or lifter failure.

Was it because MDS was deleted? That seems to be the case, IMHO. Then again, it might be as you have suggested....poorly designed lifters using cheap parts. If it had anything to do with the valve springs, I would assume we'd see more lifter failures even with the upgraded lifters and camshafts. So far, I have not read of any upgraded engine failures.

Joe

Last edited by JosephA; 04/30/19 05:27 PM.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5091939 04/30/19 06:04 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by JosephA

I could be wrong, but the 6.1 in the Challenger came with MDS, but was unavailable for the 6.4 Hemi until about 2011. So I believe the first one was an 6.1 MDS engine which became available in 2009'ish.

The Grand Cherokee I believe also came with MDS around 2005, so the second link posted might have been an MDS engine. I might have missed any comment or post from the provided links wherein they specifically mentioned if their engine was either an MDS or non-MDS engine.


Only the 5.7L during those years had MDS, the 6.1L never had it, it first appeared on SRT's with the 6.4L, but only backed by an automatic.
https://www.auto123.com/en/car-reviews/2012-chrysler-300-srt8-first-impressions/54109/

Quote
It wasn’t long ago that Chrysler’s 6.1L V8 HEMI engine was considered massive by modern standards; well, think again. For 2012, the SRT8 engine displaces a whopping 6.4 litres (that’s 392 cubes for the retro) and belts out 470 hp matched by 470 lb-ft of torque.

Not only does the bigger HEMI create more clout, it does so more efficiently thanks to Chrysler’s fuel-saving MDS cylinder deactivation technology.


Also: https://www.enginebuildermag.com/wp-content/uploads/46568ChryslerHe_00000019776.pdf

Quote
All of the 6.1L engines came without MDS so there is only one cam used for them. It has some serious lift, about 0.050 ̋ more than the 5.7L, so the lobes are almost as tall as the journals. Chrysler says it has 283 degrees of duration on the intake and 286 degrees on the exhaust at.006 ̋ and 50 degrees overlap, so it’s pretty aggressive compared to the 5.7L cam.


There is also this 2010 Challenger brochure that notes that only the 5.7L, and only backed by an automatic, is available with MDS. The 6.1L does not have MDS:
https://www.dodge.com/en/pdf/2010_challenger.pdf


Originally Posted by JosephA
I can see your theory as well, and it is sound. And you might be right. But to me, if that were the case, I would have seen lifters failing on Bank 1 and not limited solely to bank 2 (again on my engine). The intake lifter for cylinder #2 was slightly wet, and had minimal chaffing. The MDS intake lifter on #4 was twisted and unlocked, with the locking pin shifted to the left side within the lifter. It was soaked heavily with engine oil. The intake lifter for #6 was also shifted in the unlocked position and its locking pin was off to the side as well (off-center), and it too was soaked in engine oil. Then finally, the destroyed lifter on #8 was nearly bone dry and not even the springs were wet. That thus told me that cylinders #2 and #8 intake lifters were not getting enough oil, meanwhile the 2 MDS lifters (#4 and #6) were soaked in engine oil. So careful examination seems to suggest insufficient oil to the non MDS lifters on Bank 2, while more than ample oil on the MDS lifters (Bank 2). This is why my theory concluded that the reason for failure had to do with the MDS lifters robbing engine oil pressure just on the bank 2 valve train system. I did not mean to suggest that the rest of the engine suffered oil starvation; only the valve train system will likely be impacted when an MDS lifter fails to lock. An unlocked lifter when it should be locked will lead to wasted oil pressure on the specific MDS lifter, and thereby reduce the amount of oil pressure to the rest of the valve train on the same bank. Keep in mind this does not mean that the rest of the engine would suffer oil loss.

I will have to look at the plumbing galley for the hemi engine. I know the oil pump is at the bottom and a tube feeds Bank 1, and a separate tube feeds bank 2. The first valve train to receive oil is from the first cylinder to the last cylinder of the applicable banks. Otherwise, it makes no sense trying to understand why 2 lifters on Bank 2 were heavily soaked with oil, but the other 2 lifters (intake lifters) were nearly dry.

Lastly, I have motored this engine at idle with the valve covers off, and I saw the same results. Oil oozed out near the center of the head on Bank 2 (Passenger side), but nothing on Cylinder 8, and very little on cylinder 2.

At the same time, I can see a valve train issue with soft springs, leading to lifter float, and that of course would cause roller damage. I can only surmise that the reason Chrysler engineers chose to use softer spring loads is to minimize the valve seat stress on the aluminum heads, and also decrease drag in order to enhance fuel efficiency.

[quote=JosephA]Maybe this is all the result of flawed lifters from what ever country they were manufactured. But I'm not convinced this is the case because we would see random lifters dropping out all over the engine, and impacting nearly every hemi engine. Thus, I believe this is primarily limited to the MDS engines, and possibly some non-MDS engines suffering failure. But this I am convinced of. So far, all who have upgarded their hemi's to the Comp-Camshaft, Hellcat lifters, oil plugs, and ECM flash, have not had a repeat of camshaft or lifter failure.


If you had a 1 in 10,000 lifter failure rate, you'd likely only have an engine impacted by one lifter, which likely corresponds with the failure rate being observed. Also, it does seem to require a fair deal of mileage/hours before it happens, which, if it was solely due to starvation, you'd think would happen earlier on, particularly since we know it happens on non-MDS engines too, even if not in the same quantity shrug

Regarding the upgrades: Since the failures usually require significant mileage before occurring, how many of those people that have swapped out their parts have since accrued that same amount of mileage? I'm interested to see if any of the HellCat lifters fail once there are enough out there with high miles on them, that'd be a real tell, though the 6.1L failures are pretty [censored] in themselves, as those engines also had billet steel camshafts.

Originally Posted by JosephA
Was it because MDS was deleted? That seems to be the case, IMHO. Then again, it might be as you have suggested....poorly designed lifters using cheap parts. If it had anything to do with the valve springs, I would assume we'd see more lifter failures even with the upgraded lifters and camshafts. So far, I have not read of any upgraded engine failures.

Joe


It's possible it's also a combination of weak springs and needle-bearing lifters that aren't tolerant of anything resembling float. Heck, if we toss a marginal oil delivery system in there it's a potential recipe for a perfect storm that may require all three things simultaneously to propagate. It's definitely an interesting topic.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091991 04/30/19 06:51 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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BTW, so far this is the only 5.7L MDS HEMI oiling diagram I could find:
[Linked Image]

It seems to show that there are four runs up to the heads to feed the rocker shafts and that each of those runs has a solenoid tapped into it for the MDS and would also seem to feed, separately, the non-MDS lifter galleys.

These diagrams from the Jeep site also seem to help a bit:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I'll update if I find anything else.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OVERKILL] #5092218 04/30/19 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
BTW, so far this is the only 5.7L MDS HEMI oiling diagram I could find:
[Linked Image]

It seems to show that there are four runs up to the heads to feed the rocker shafts and that each of those runs has a solenoid tapped into it for the MDS and would also seem to feed, separately, the non-MDS lifter galleys.

These diagrams from the Jeep site also seem to help a bit:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I'll update if I find anything else.


The images you've provided look good. The bottom image you posted shows the travel path of the engines oil through the tube after the oil filter. The first cylinder lifters to be lubed on bank 2 are #2, then 4, then 6, and finally 8; it's the same with bank 1.

Here's a video showing how the MDS system works.

How MDS works

What's nuts about this technology is the use of oil pressure to expand the lifters on demand. This to me would seem to suggest that even oil pressure throughout the entire Bank 1 and Bank 2 valve train is temporarily reduced as the lifters are forced to expand. Once the MDS lifters expand, even oil pressure to the valve train is restored. However, it is my theory that when an MDS lifter fails to expand and lock, oil pressure is needed to sustain an expanded position. While the lifter expansion isn't as strong as the locked expansion, the lifter might still function, albeit at a degraded capacity, and hence causing the infamous "Hemi-Tick". When the lifter rotates due to internal guide failure (made of plastic unfortunately), the bottom half of the lifter might rotate, and make it impossible for the lifter to lock. The roller is thus subjected to uneven forces and the stress causes the roller to wear out incorrectly. Eventually the roller will fail and break, leaving FOD all inside of the engine and potentially damaging other components.

On my engine, #8 was completely destroyed and it's 1/3 of the roller is missing (inside of the engine), and all of its associated needle bearings were gone (also within the engine). The 2 MDS lifters for bank one had chaffed rollers, and one roller with a great deal of slop (up and down, side to side play); this despite plenty of engine oil. The cause is due to riding the camshaft lobe off-center.

Joe

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5092234 04/30/19 10:49 PM
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I saw that video on youtube, but didn't find it sufficiently detailed the oil paths as shown in the first diagram, which appears to show four paths that break off from the main gallery that feeds both the mains and cam bearings, which makes sense when you consider the 4 solenoids. I'd like to find a better diagram though to confirm what I'm seeing. And yes, I'd expect, given the size of the feeds coming from the main gallery, that there would be a momentary "blip" in oil pressure (which should be compensated for almost immediately due to the positive displacement nature of the oil pump) at the feeds for the lifters for the remaining cylinders when the solenoids open. I would not however, expect that this would be enough to compromise lubrication. These aren't ultra high stress locations, and this would/should only be an issue if lubrication in these areas was marginal in the first place.

I understand the reasoning behind your analysis, but that doesn't in any way explain the failure on non-MDS engines shrug

I wonder if the 6.1L used the same lifters? I know the 6.4L does.


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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OVERKILL] #5092388 05/01/19 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I saw that video on youtube, but didn't find it sufficiently detailed the oil paths as shown in the first diagram, which appears to show four paths that break off from the main gallery that feeds both the mains and cam bearings, which makes sense when you consider the 4 solenoids. I'd like to find a better diagram though to confirm what I'm seeing. And yes, I'd expect, given the size of the feeds coming from the main gallery, that there would be a momentary "blip" in oil pressure (which should be compensated for almost immediately due to the positive displacement nature of the oil pump) at the feeds for the lifters for the remaining cylinders when the solenoids open. I would not however, expect that this would be enough to compromise lubrication. These aren't ultra high stress locations, and this would/should only be an issue if lubrication in these areas was marginal in the first place.

I understand the reasoning behind your analysis, but that doesn't in any way explain the failure on non-MDS engines shrug

I wonder if the 6.1L used the same lifters? I know the 6.4L does.


Good analysis. And thanks for responding.

Under normal operation, the momentary blip is insufficient to cause a lack of lubrication to the lifters. However, if an MDS lifter fails to lock (which seems to be the case, particularly with my engine), likely due to the lower half and the internal parts of the locking mechenism twist/rotate off center, the lifter cannot lock and thus the higher oil pressure needed to keep the MDS lifters expanded is wasted, thus leading to oil starvation on the rest of the valve train. I noted this after tearing into my engine. The 2 inner cylinders on Bank 2 (#4 and #6) were soaked with oil, but were stuck in a rotated unlocked position. I'll post some pictures this evening of the 2 lifters I'm referring to. Meanwhile, the other two intake lifters for the non-mds cylinders (#2 and #8) were nearly dry, as though they were not getting enough oil. #8 was destroyed, and #2 showed minimal wear. #8 intake lifter lost its needle bearings and almost half of the roller. The lifter also showed signs of scaring on its edges. This clearly suggests an oil starvation issue, likely during long idle operations; my wife does have a tendency to idle the engine.

Joe

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