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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: KCJeep] #2829189 12/09/12 01:09 PM
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coolbird101 Offline
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yes, this what I have seen as well, in most cases the hemi tick is just broken exaust manifold bolts.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
This was a common problem on the 3.7 V6's and 4.7 V8's, mostly the pre 2008 versions though. Never heard of it on a 5.7 Hemi.


2013 Mazda 6
Valvoline maxlife full synthetic 5w/20
Motorcraft fl400s

2005 Dodge Ram hemi
Valvoline maxlife full synthetic 5w/20
Fram xg16
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #2829345 12/09/12 03:51 PM
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fdcg27 Offline
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I think you've just had a random failure.
I don't think it has anything to so with the oil you've used or the OCI.
Look at it this way:
This engine has two valve heads, so every engine has sixteen valve lifters.
If the early failure rate is 1/100th of 1%, or one out of every 10,000, then one out of every 625 engines will experience an early lifter failure.
If the failure rate is 1/1000th of 1%, or one out of every hundred thousand lifters, then one out of every 6250 engines will experience an early lifter failure.
What I'm saying is that the part may have a very low failure rate, and you're just one of those unlucky enough to have had the experience.
Nothing to do with your oil or OCIs, just that mechanical pieces are not all perfectly made, and quality control is imperfect as well.


18 Accord Hybrid 10K HGMO 0W-20
17 Forester 24K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 115K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #2829404 12/09/12 05:02 PM
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NHHEMI Offline
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Originally Posted By: BullyT

You are correct that the "Hemi tick" is a common issue, but it is more of an annoyance than anything...it doesn't affect long term durability of the engine. I didn't get the common Hemi tick which tends to disappear when the engine warms up. My engine was fine for 65,000 miles then from one day to the next it developed a loud tick--almost a knocking sound. It was also continuous--hot or cold engine. A slight Hemi tick is common, a collapsed lifter is not.


Actually, the infamous Hemi Tick does not go away when the engine warms up. The "tick" if an engine has it is present at all times warm or cold. If there is a cold tick that goes away, or significantly lessens, once the engine warms up the most common culprit is a busted exhaust manifold bolt or the manifold itself.


Proud user of Royal Purple products thumbsup
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5090879 04/29/19 05:48 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Greetings all:

I find it rather laughable when I hear people suggest that the 5.7 Hemi lifter/camshaft failures are a rare thing. It is quite common and getting much worse.

My name is Joseph and I have a 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi 5.7 that started the infamous "hemi-tick" at about 90,000 miles give or take. Since it was under warranty at the time, I took it to the local Dodge Servicing department in Sumter SC. They replaced a coil pack, all 16 spark plugs, and supposedly did an intake induction cleaning and fuel system flush. Total cost to me was $988 bucks. That's the most expensive tune-up I've ever seen, especially considering the same services were advertised on their own board for about $300 bucks. Personally, I suspect they did more than that and it's my suspicion that changed out a bad lifter despite the possibility of a bad camshaft lobe. They knew our warranty was about to expire so they did the bare minimum to turn the truck back out to me with the hidden repair they did. I know that Chrysler is telling their service departments to hide the camshaft lifter failures if at all possible in order to minimize public awareness.

To get to my point, at about 104,000 miles, the "hemi-tick" came back and eventually turned into a loud knock. Since the warranty was expired, I tore into the engine myself (I'm a retired AF aircraft mechanic), 36 years of automotive repair, and even paint and body repair. So my mechanical skills are not lacking to say the least, without which I would not have been able to sustain my 1999 Chevy Suburban 5.7 Vortec for as long as I have, and still running strong. Sure she's needed work along the way, but she still goes strong. Just for giggles and fun, I pulled the Suburban's engine 3 years ago and did a complete overhaul, bottom and top. The rings were still solid, cross-hatches still visible, and no ridge around the bore-tips. And the camshaft and lifters looked beautiful, despite neglected oil changes (on the Suburban) at times, and about 225,000 miles. The only degredation I noted were my intake and exhaust valves which were all pitted, so I replaced the valves and lapped them in my garage. To-date, 297,000 miles on my baby and she's still pulling roughly 6,000 pounds of horse trailer (with horses).

I can't say that for my Ram. With only 114,000 miles, the #8 cylinder lifter was destroyed and the roller and needle bearings were missing. Naturally I've got to drop the oil pan to remove all possible debris. Cylinder's 4 and 6 MDS lifters were also damaged as each of its rollers were severely chaffed. I noticed that both MDS lifters for 4 and 6 were not appropriately locked on center as the lock-tabs were twisted to the side, thus causing the rollers to spin somewhat at an angle. This no doubt caused the damage to the lifter rollers for cylinders 4 and 6. Cylinder number 8 however was completely dry with little to no oil, and it's roller is toast, and the camshaft lobe for all 3 cylinders mentioned (passenger side) are destroyed.

WHAT'S CAUSING THE PROBLEM?

This is something I've yet to see anyone explain. Mind you I am a [censored] good troubleshooting mechanic (all thanks to the USAF), and here then is my diagnosis. MDS lifters require oil pressure to expand into the locked position. This temporarily robs the oil supply volume just long enough to lock the lifters into place. Once locked, oil pressure is dispersed evenly respective of the applicable lubed component of the engine. Unfortunately, when you have 1 or more MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is lost to the rest of the engine (not all pressure but enough to cause oil starvation). This would explain why the intake lifters for cylinder's 2 and 8 were nearly dry, while cyilnder's 4 and 6 intake MDS lifters were saturated with oil since both of these lifters failed to lock. When an MDS lifter fails to lock due to internal failure of the PLASTIC (did I mention plastic?) keepers, oil pressure continues to attempt to lock the lifter, which of course never happens due to the failure, and this robs the engine of oil to the rest of the valve-train. Lifters that fail to lock also cause the infamous "Hemi-tick". So NO the Hemi-tick is not a good thing and NO it is not normal.

SOLUTION:

Dump the MDS system. This requires camshaft replacement-upgrade to a non-MDS system, installation for solid lifters with heavier duty rollers, removal and plugging of the MDS oil solenoids, and a PCM flash for MDS deactivation. The 5.7 Hemi is a rather easier engine to work on. I found the fan-clutch to be a little more difficult to remove than usual; that is until I realized that after 2007 (or 2009), the fan clutch is not leftee-loossie, righty-tighty, but rather righty-loosie and lefty-tighty. The rest is not that difficult. You will likely find the exhaust manifold heat-shield bolts broken. I suggest not putting that wasted product back on. Switch out to headers if you choose, or simply leave the exhaust manifold exposed. There is nothing nearby that will be damaged from heat. The driver side exhaust manifold is a little bit pesky to takeoff due to the steering column shaft. Or better yet, leave the exhaust manifold on the heads and disconnect the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I chose to remove them in case my heads needed to be worked.

Summary: The MDS lifters are failing to lock and robbing the engine of oil pressure. This is especially worsened by those who might have a nasty habit of idling the engine too long. The loss of oil pressure, especially at idle, causes oil-starvation to the rest of the valve train of the specific bank (1 - driver side / 2 - passenger side) and causing the lifters to fail at the rollers. Once the rollers are damaged, the camshaft lobes will eventually be wiped out. Lastly, I will not be using 5W-20 as the dealership has been using, and yes (for the record), we've maintained appropriate oil-change maintenance, and yet still suffered catastrophic failure. I will be switching over to 5W-30 synthetic once I've completed the upgrade.

I hope this helps anyone else out there. You do not have to agree, but I'm almost certain my prognosis is 100% percent correct. The dry #8 lifter caused by lost oil pressure due to lifters 4 and 6 MDS lifters hogging oil pressure, is clear indication of what's causing the lifter rollers to fail, and thus leading to unfortunate camshaft destruction. #8 lifter was destroyed due to oil-starvation, and lifters 4 and 6 were damaged due to failing to lock on-center leading to excessive oil supply attempts at locking the lifter into place.

Last edited by JosephA; 04/29/19 05:59 PM.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5090890 04/29/19 06:03 PM
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burla Offline
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Posts: 997
Thanks for posting your experience bud, we do have a hemi thread attacking the issue from a lubrication stand point, as much as you can anyway. It surely isn't just mds lifters, we are seeing the same thing with the non mds lifters like in the 6.4, it is just fca quality, or lack there of. Check out ram forum for a bunch of guys who have video'd and posted thier findings, and ram forumz as they have done a better job documenting it. I'd research oil, some formulas may help.

LINK.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: JosephA] #5090936 04/29/19 07:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,275
dave1251 Offline
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Posts: 12,275
Originally Posted by JosephA
Greetings all:

I find it rather laughable when I hear people suggest that the 5.7 Hemi lifter/camshaft failures are a rare thing. It is quite common and getting much worse.

My name is Joseph and I have a 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi 5.7 that started the infamous "hemi-tick" at about 90,000 miles give or take. Since it was under warranty at the time, I took it to the local Dodge Servicing department in Sumter SC. They replaced a coil pack, all 16 spark plugs, and supposedly did an intake induction cleaning and fuel system flush. Total cost to me was $988 bucks. That's the most expensive tune-up I've ever seen, especially considering the same services were advertised on their own board for about $300 bucks. Personally, I suspect they did more than that and it's my suspicion that changed out a bad lifter despite the possibility of a bad camshaft lobe. They knew our warranty was about to expire so they did the bare minimum to turn the truck back out to me with the hidden repair they did. I know that Chrysler is telling their service departments to hide the camshaft lifter failures if at all possible in order to minimize public awareness.

To get to my point, at about 104,000 miles, the "hemi-tick" came back and eventually turned into a loud knock. Since the warranty was expired, I tore into the engine myself (I'm a retired AF aircraft mechanic), 36 years of automotive repair, and even paint and body repair. So my mechanical skills are not lacking to say the least, without which I would not have been able to sustain my 1999 Chevy Suburban 5.7 Vortec for as long as I have, and still running strong. Sure she's needed work along the way, but she still goes strong. Just for giggles and fun, I pulled the Suburban's engine 3 years ago and did a complete overhaul, bottom and top. The rings were still solid, cross-hatches still visible, and no ridge around the bore-tips. And the camshaft and lifters looked beautiful, despite neglected oil changes (on the Suburban) at times, and about 225,000 miles. The only degredation I noted were my intake and exhaust valves which were all pitted, so I replaced the valves and lapped them in my garage. To-date, 297,000 miles on my baby and she's still pulling roughly 6,000 pounds of horse trailer (with horses).

I can't say that for my Ram. With only 114,000 miles, the #8 cylinder lifter was destroyed and the roller and needle bearings were missing. Naturally I've got to drop the oil pan to remove all possible debris. Cylinder's 4 and 6 MDS lifters were also damaged as each of its rollers were severely chaffed. I noticed that both MDS lifters for 4 and 6 were not appropriately locked on center as the lock-tabs were twisted to the side, thus causing the rollers to spin somewhat at an angle. This no doubt caused the damage to the lifter rollers for cylinders 4 and 6. Cylinder number 8 however was completely dry with little to no oil, and it's roller is toast, and the camshaft lobe for all 3 cylinders mentioned (passenger side) are destroyed.

WHAT'S CAUSING THE PROBLEM?

This is something I've yet to see anyone explain. Mind you I am a [censored] good troubleshooting mechanic (all thanks to the USAF), and here then is my diagnosis. MDS lifters require oil pressure to expand into the locked position. This temporarily robs the oil supply volume just long enough to lock the lifters into place. Once locked, oil pressure is dispersed evenly respective of the applicable lubed component of the engine. Unfortunately, when you have 1 or more MDS lifters failing to lock, oil pressure is lost to the rest of the engine (not all pressure but enough to cause oil starvation). This would explain why the intake lifters for cylinder's 2 and 8 were nearly dry, while cyilnder's 4 and 6 intake MDS lifters were saturated with oil since both of these lifters failed to lock. When an MDS lifter fails to lock due to internal failure of the PLASTIC (did I mention plastic?) keepers, oil pressure continues to attempt to lock the lifter, which of course never happens due to the failure, and this robs the engine of oil to the rest of the valve-train. Lifters that fail to lock also cause the infamous "Hemi-tick". So NO the Hemi-tick is not a good thing and NO it is not normal.

SOLUTION:

Dump the MDS system. This requires camshaft replacement-upgrade to a non-MDS system, installation for solid lifters with heavier duty rollers, removal and plugging of the MDS oil solenoids, and a PCM flash for MDS deactivation. The 5.7 Hemi is a rather easier engine to work on. I found the fan-clutch to be a little more difficult to remove than usual; that is until I realized that after 2007 (or 2009), the fan clutch is not leftee-loossie, righty-tighty, but rather righty-loosie and lefty-tighty. The rest is not that difficult. You will likely find the exhaust manifold heat-shield bolts broken. I suggest not putting that wasted product back on. Switch out to headers if you choose, or simply leave the exhaust manifold exposed. There is nothing nearby that will be damaged from heat. The driver side exhaust manifold is a little bit pesky to takeoff due to the steering column shaft. Or better yet, leave the exhaust manifold on the heads and disconnect the exhaust pipes from the manifold. I chose to remove them in case my heads needed to be worked.

Summary: The MDS lifters are failing to lock and robbing the engine of oil pressure. This is especially worsened by those who might have a nasty habit of idling the engine too long. The loss of oil pressure, especially at idle, causes oil-starvation to the rest of the valve train of the specific bank (1 - driver side / 2 - passenger side) and causing the lifters to fail at the rollers. Once the rollers are damaged, the camshaft lobes will eventually be wiped out. Lastly, I will not be using 5W-20 as the dealership has been using, and yes (for the record), we've maintained appropriate oil-change maintenance, and yet still suffered catastrophic failure. I will be switching over to 5W-30 synthetic once I've completed the upgrade.

I hope this helps anyone else out there. You do not have to agree, but I'm almost certain my prognosis is 100% percent correct. The dry #8 lifter caused by lost oil pressure due to lifters 4 and 6 MDS lifters hogging oil pressure, is clear indication of what's causing the lifter rollers to fail, and thus leading to unfortunate camshaft destruction. #8 lifter was destroyed due to oil-starvation, and lifters 4 and 6 were damaged due to failing to lock on-center leading to excessive oil supply attempts at locking the lifter into place.


The HEMI failure rate is about 11 per 1,000 manufactured. What is your theory of idle operation cause a greater chance of failure?

Also for some reason your posting style and adding off subject information to strength your point is familiar.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5090983 04/29/19 07:55 PM
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PimTac Offline
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Joseph’s comment started to sound like a AA meeting intro.

Hello, my name is Joseph and I own a hemi ticker.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: PimTac] #5090995 04/29/19 08:06 PM
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burla Offline
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Joseph’s comment started to sound like a AA meeting intro.

Hello, my name is Joseph and I own a hemi ticker.


obviously this thread has no interest to you, so why post garbage?

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: burla] #5091020 04/29/19 08:31 PM
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Posts: 932
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kstanf150 Online Content
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Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by PimTac
Joseph’s comment started to sound like a AA meeting intro.

Hello, my name is Joseph and I own a hemi ticker.


obviously this thread has no interest to you, so why post garbage?


Absoulty
I agree burla

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091033 04/29/19 08:42 PM
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PimTac Offline
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I’ve triggered the ignored posters by the looks of it. The “new” member JosephA digs up a 2012 thread to confess about his hemi troubles along with more than we really needed to know.

Probably someone from the Ram forum trying to pike the hornet nest.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: PimTac] #5091084 04/29/19 09:46 PM
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dave1251 Offline
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Originally Posted by PimTac
I’ve triggered the ignored posters by the looks of it. The “new” member JosephA digs up a 2012 thread to confess about his hemi troubles along with more than we really needed to know.

Probably someone from the Ram forum trying to pike the hornet nest.



My belief is he is a member here with mutiple usernames. Or another banned member who has returned.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091115 04/29/19 10:14 PM
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burla Offline
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I've never been banned here, parked once but not banned for adding a y to pimtacks name in jest, wonder who's pulling that chain, and could quite frankly could care less about you and your shilling dude. I mainly came to bring helpful info about the hemi that has helped many people. Many of those people who also posted here, and were met with the same disrespect you have shown me. Why most of them don't bother to post here, eventhough it is thier nature to help folks. Many gf-5 5w20 that met spec are not adequately lubricating hemi's, it isn't a close call. You so called "oil guys" constantly ad hominim attack people instead of making informed statements about the thread at hand. You last garbage statement just another joke coming from you dude.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091179 04/30/19 02:17 AM
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OilUzer Offline
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@JosephA,
Can Red Line oil fix the hemi tick?

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: burla] #5091237 04/30/19 06:26 AM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
Thanks for posting your experience bud, we do have a hemi thread attacking the issue from a lubrication stand point, as much as you can anyway. It surely isn't just mds lifters, we are seeing the same thing with the non mds lifters like in the 6.4, it is just fca quality, or lack there of. Check out ram forum for a bunch of guys who have video'd and posted thier findings, and ram forumz as they have done a better job documenting it. I'd research oil, some formulas may help.

LINK.


That is correct. But what's causing the non-mds lifters to fail are failed MDS lifters robbing oil to the non-MDS lifters. I saw this immediately upon removing the passenger side head and lifters. Cylinders 4 and 6 (Bank 2) are MDS lifters, both of which were twisted and not locked on center, and both were saturated in oil. Cylinders 2 and 8 (Bank 2) did not get much oil and were nearly dry, and that's because the 2 MDS lifters on Bank 2 were stuck in the unlocked position, and hogging up Bank 2 oil pressure, thus leaving the other 2 cylinders starved for oil.

Bank 1 showed no signs of oil starvation and yet I've seen reports of both MDS and non-MDS lifters failing on Bank 1.

So the cause of oil starvation is 100% percent caused by twisted MDS lifters with the lock-guide-pin-hole being left open with the lower end of the MDS lifter has twisted and cannot lock into place. So oil is continuously pumped into those twisted MDS lifters which robs the rest of the valve train of oil.

For example, if I run a single water hose from my house. At the end of the hose, I connect 4 additional hoses of equal length and size. All 4 add-on hoses should receive the same amount of water. However, if one of the add on hoses develops a leak, the hose with the leak will receive the most water, thereby reducing water flow to the other 3 non-leaking hoses.

This is what's happening to the valve trains on either Banks 1 or 2. Once an MDS lifter fails to lock, excessive oil pressure continues to flow into the leaking MDS lifter, which robs the other lifters of oil. The more MDS lifters you have that are not properly locking, the more oil pressure will be lost to the rest of the valve train.

Joe

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5091239 04/30/19 06:28 AM
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ofelas Online Content
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Joe, the non MDS engines have similar issues.


R12 in the summer, Webasto in the winter, and cassette tapes all year.
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