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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5101117 05/09/19 11:17 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Here you go folks. The damage was worse than I thought. The cam lobe ground on its edges and part of the top was caused from intake lifter #8 (the one missing 1/3 of its roller and all needle bearings). I was able to recover a few needle bearings in the cam galley. I suspect however the rest must be in the oil pan, which I will drop later on this weekend. I scoped the entire cam galley and did not find any FOD laying around, except a few needle bearings which I extracted using a magnet.

The cam lobe ground at its center is Intake lifter lobe #6; the one with the loose and semi-locked roller.

I have a few other pics but those show surface wear and scoring.

Now it's time to order the parts I need. And while I am waiting on the parts, I will drop the pan and hope to God that the rest of the FOD is laying in there. Anyone know by chance how many needle bearings are in a Hemi lifter? I recovered 3 pieces so far.

Joe

[Linked Image]
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Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5101209 05/10/19 05:14 AM
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das_peikko Offline
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Your 2009 Dodge needs an MDS delete kit from TSP (Texas Speed and Performance).

[Linked Image]

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: das_peikko] #5101496 05/10/19 11:05 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by das_peikko
Your 2009 Dodge needs an MDS delete kit from TSP (Texas Speed and Performance).


You read none of the posts in this thread duh

[Linked Image]


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5101528 05/10/19 11:35 AM
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burla Offline
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Thanks Joe for showing us the bad news. When you are in the fold of the hemi circus, you realize how prevelant this is, I can't even tell you how many hemi cam lobs I have seen like this. You talk to a bunch of randon hemi owners for a period of 5 years, and it just so happens that 10% of them end up this way? You watch the online mechanics like Motor City Mechanic and many others that see Rams and you see how they talk about the hemi cam issues. It is a very prevelant issue in the hemi world, more common then anyone knows. I was watching this one when they brought a ram in for this issue but the guy had all 3 of his bays full of 3 trucks with the same issue. Sometimes they can't get the cam out = total loss. Do you have any idea how many times I have heard cams or lifters on backorder? Why do you suppose that is? I think if every guy that had this happen put the work you put in, we would have a better handle of this thing. Thanks again, I have some guys reading this thread to see if they have anything to add that may be helpful. In the end you and OK likely helped them understand about the issue more then they have to contribute back.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: OVERKILL] #5102738 05/11/19 06:10 PM
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das_peikko Offline
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
You read none of the posts in this thread duh


You're right; I didn't read any of the posts and only read half of the opening post. All I needed to read was "MDS" and off to Google Images I went. Are you kidding man? It would take me 5 years just to read your posts in this thread. grin2

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: das_peikko] #5102744 05/11/19 06:22 PM
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ofelas Offline
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I like his posts.

He generally makes sense, even if his posts are a bit long winded.

Originally Posted by das_peikko
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
You read none of the posts in this thread duh


You're right; I didn't read any of the posts and only read half of the opening post. All I needed to read was "MDS" and off to Google Images I went. Are you kidding man? It would take me 5 years just to read your posts in this thread. grin2


R12 in the summer, Webasto in the winter, and cassette tapes all year.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: ofelas] #5102833 05/11/19 08:19 PM
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das_peikko Offline
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Originally Posted by ofelas
I like his posts.

He generally makes sense, even if his posts are a bit long winded.


Long winded? He's got enough wind to blow a sail boat around the Earth 4 or 5 times. grin2

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5107828 05/17/19 03:49 PM
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luna Offline
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I work at a Harley dealership and we also see lifters fail, most often it's the needles. HD changed vendors a few years back and it corresponds with the failures. I might add it occurs more in engines equipped with SE valve springs. Harley has come out with their SE line of lifters with larger diameter rollers and seem to be working well. FWIW


2016 Charger Scat Pack
2004 Jeep GC 4.0
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: burla] #5108181 05/18/19 04:33 AM
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demarpaint Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
Thanks Joe for showing us the bad news. When you are in the fold of the hemi circus, you realize how prevelant this is, I can't even tell you how many hemi cam lobs I have seen like this. You talk to a bunch of randon hemi owners for a period of 5 years, and it just so happens that 10% of them end up this way? You watch the online mechanics like Motor City Mechanic and many others that see Rams and you see how they talk about the hemi cam issues. It is a very prevelant issue in the hemi world, more common then anyone knows. I was watching this one when they brought a ram in for this issue but the guy had all 3 of his bays full of 3 trucks with the same issue. Sometimes they can't get the cam out = total loss. Do you have any idea how many times I have heard cams or lifters on backorder? Why do you suppose that is? I think if every guy that had this happen put the work you put in, we would have a better handle of this thing. Thanks again, I have some guys reading this thread to see if they have anything to add that may be helpful. In the end you and OK likely helped them understand about the issue more then they have to contribute back.

I had this discussion with the A tech that did my airbag recall last week. He had a hemi on the floor with a blown engine, out of a GC. He says there are a lot of cam failures in a lot of different vehicles which includes Chrysler's hemi. Chrysler doesn't make the cam they are outsourced which is why the problem includes other car makers as well. He and a few other techs including people higher up on the food chain believe it might be caused by the ZDDP reduction in oil formulations. He feels a ZDDP add might help, but the CC might not bode well. I found it interesting, listened and didn't comment one way or the other. I'm sure flames are coming.

I did ask about the 3.6L, he did say he sees cam failures in the 3.6L as well but not as many as the hemi.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: demarpaint] #5108265 05/18/19 08:10 AM
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dave1251 Offline
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It's not like current API, ISLAC, and manufacturers allow more cam wear for certifications.


make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
don't use.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5111259 05/21/19 12:19 PM
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Jstew Offline
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I have enjoyed reading this post and this is, by far, the most interesting one I have found pertaining to root cause. It seems the one weak link that has not been addressed by Johnson, FCA, or anyone, may be the plastic retainers. Is there, or will there be a solution? The fact that Johnson has had a 0 failure rate might not exonerate the retainer, as it does not represent a big enough sample size.

Separately, FCA seems to have “fixed” the problem on 2016 and up - how? I have read only that they are new part number lifters, so this seems to point to the lifters themselves, and not the plastic retainers.

Thoughts?


1969 Chevrolet Corvette / 65K / Brad Penn 10w30
2003 Pontiac Vibe / 155K / QSUD 5w30
2008 Toyota Sienna AWD / 160K / QSUD 5w30
2014 Dodge Durango RT 5.7 / 27K / Redline 5w20
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5111490 05/21/19 04:07 PM
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burla Offline
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Not fixed hemi tick 16 and above, a friend who I talk with everyday can testify with a 16 3500 non mds engine at that. Still every week we have new mebers with 17's and 18's with ticking hemi's as well. Spend a month at ram forum, you will have a new appreciation for the issue. Funny how so many members in one spot just happen to develop hemi tick. FCA can't address this with lubrication like it has with other issues like eco deisel and bearings because of CAFE and the lie that mds requires 20 weight oil. So if you have hemi tick or are concerned about the number of cams being wiped out, all you can do is do some research and develop a strategy or sell the thing. Selling it is the only guaruntee.

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5111519 05/21/19 04:40 PM
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Greg L Offline
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Thanks for posting. No issues yet with my 2011 MDS 5.7 Hemi. No ticking that I can hear, even on a cold start up. 159k miles. Still makes me nervous. Took the readers post above with a grain of salt & added about 7 oz of ZDDP additive, at the risk of fouling the catalytic and 02 sensors.


1951 GMC 1/2 Ton 270ci
2008 Jeep Compass 2.4
2010 Toyota Prius 1.8
2011 Dodge Ram 1500, 5.7 Hemi

Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: burla] #5115014 05/24/19 10:35 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Originally Posted by burla
Thanks Joe for showing us the bad news. When you are in the fold of the hemi circus, you realize how prevelant this is, I can't even tell you how many hemi cam lobs I have seen like this. You talk to a bunch of randon hemi owners for a period of 5 years, and it just so happens that 10% of them end up this way? You watch the online mechanics like Motor City Mechanic and many others that see Rams and you see how they talk about the hemi cam issues. It is a very prevelant issue in the hemi world, more common then anyone knows. I was watching this one when they brought a ram in for this issue but the guy had all 3 of his bays full of 3 trucks with the same issue. Sometimes they can't get the cam out = total loss. Do you have any idea how many times I have heard cams or lifters on backorder? Why do you suppose that is? I think if every guy that had this happen put the work you put in, we would have a better handle of this thing. Thanks again, I have some guys reading this thread to see if they have anything to add that may be helpful. In the end you and OK likely helped them understand about the issue more then they have to contribute back.


Thanks for the complement. And I do hope that someone that you might know with extensive experience in repairing the Hemi can offer some solutions. My wife is getting ticked off at me because I have not yet begun to fix her truck; it's tore down but not yet repaired. She doesn't understand the complexities involved. Sure I could buy stock parts (assuming I could even acquire them in sufficient time) and get the darn thing running again. But all it will do is happen again. Heck my son debated with me on this and asked, "Why not just go to a junk yard and pull parts from another Hemi"? LOL I explained to him that:

1. Junk yards will not usually sell you engine parts (internal that is); they prefer to sell the entire engine
2. Installing a similar MDS style engine would only lead to the same problem

It's my strongest opinion that the primary reason why the exact cause cannot be found on the web is because of the large amount of censorship, misinformation, and disinformation flooding the web by pro-Hemi folks who are either working as Chrysler trolls, or just trolls in general, flooding the net with false failure rates (claiming the number of failures is low based on the total number of produced Hemi's), pointing the finger at lifters, and my favorite one is blaming the driver for long idle times or inadequate oil changes. These excuses to cast blame away from Chrysler engineers is laughable to say the least. Claiming low failure rate compared to a huge back log of stock lifters is contradictory, to say the least. LOL

I've examined this engine inside and out, not that I'm perfect, but I consider myself to be a very good mechanic. I work on all kinds of different machines and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's going on here. So here is my belief on the cause of the problem.

I believe the primary problem is insufficient oil volume due to the EPA's CAFE standards on fuel efficiency which forced automotive engineers to find every way possible to safe a few micro-gallons of fuel per 10 feet of driving. LOL I'm exaggerating of course. Some claim that the problem happens on non-MDS vehicles, and siting that the reason for lower failures with non-MDS systems has to do with lower ownership of non MDS systems. This to me, while difficult to prove, is untrue. I see more Challengers and Chargers on the road than I do RAM's. Yet most of the vehicles I see at the local dealership having engine lifter/camshaft repairs being done to them are RAMS. The few non-MDS Hemi's that are failing are likely due to stress from owners of these fast machines have a difficult time keeping their food off the gas pedal. I don't know how many Charger owners I see romping their pedals and spinning tires. And logically, anytime you build a high performance engine using low performance parts, you're going to see these kinds of failures. Thus, it is my personal opinion that the low lifter failure rates of the non-MDS Hemi's are from abuse. But for the RAMS, I firmly believe it is directly tied to insufficient lubrication. And the oil starvation is exacerbated by the MDS itself. Oil pressure is required during the entire time the MDS is on operation to keep the MDS lifters from locking. Even though MDS only does this during cruising speeds and at higher RPM's, the current chain-driven oil pumps, in my opinion, are not putting out enough pressure.

The primary culprit with regards to oil starvation is the use of non-weighted engine oil. During hot days and long idle times, coupled with a very weak oil pump, insufficient oil volume exists, thereby leading to over heated needle bearings in what might also be poorly designed lifters. Another factor to consider are the lifters (more specifically MDS lifters) getting stuck and not allowing the push rods to sink into the lifter as they are supposed to. This might be evidenced by the heavy damage seen atop of the valve spring caps denoting heavy wear from the extra forces being applied.

From my engine, the only side that suffered both cam and lifter failure is Bank 2 (passenger side). The drive side denote zero indications of abnormal wear. The differences between Bank 1 and Bank 2 after careful examination were this:

1. All of the lifters appeared to be well lubricated on Bank 1 (driver side).
2. Most lifters on Bank 2 showed abnormal wear patters, i.e. severely worn rollers, rollers worn at a taper pattern, cam lobes being ground down, and one lifter completely destroyed #8).
3. 2 of the MDS and 1 non-MDS lifter were completely frozen, and did not allow the push rods to spring/pump atop of the lifter as they are designed to do. This did not happen on Bank 1.

So based on my findings, to me the problem was caused by lack of lubrication on Bank 2, likely caused by the locked/failed lifters which led to too much oil for the MDS lifters, and not enough oil for the non-MDS lifters. There will be those who do not agree, and that is okay. Whether or not their motives for objection are genuinely true, or simply misguided. But this one fact remains. Chrysler has had several decades of producing horrible unreliable vehicles even as far back as the 1980's. This is why many of us with lesser incomes might be inclined to buy a Dodge vehicle; especially poverty stricken people with poor credit. So there really is no incentive for Chrysler to build a high quality vehicle. And as I've stated before, I've owned a total of 4 Dodge vehicles, and 3 of the 4 all crapped out below or slightly above 100K miles, despite religious upkeep and routine maintenance. It's gotten to the point now that no matter how much you baby your Dodge, the [censored] thing is going to break on you, whether you like it or not. Some do last longer than 300K; I've seen it. But most do not seem to make it. Stratus sucks, Neon's were horrible, Intrepids catching fire, Durango's killing occupants from failed ball joints while traveling at highway speeds, 2.7 liter pump failures destroying the chain and the coolant systems, 2.0 and 2.4 liters losing head gaskets and oil, 3.1 liters also losing oil, and now Hemi's losing valve seats (earlier Hemi's) and modern Hemi's losing lifters and cams.

While other vehicle manufacturers have had their share of problems, NONE and I do mean NONE can compare to the large history of failures Chrysler continues to have. Thus in my strongest opinion, and anyone can take this to the bank, Chrysler needs to close down and let them fade away into history. Ford has had their fair share of problems, but they seem to have bounced back with the eco-boost and the fusion. GM has held strong for a while, until they had initial problems with the LS engine designs (piston slap), and now they too are facing problems with DoD (Displacement on Demand). Hmmmm? Both GM and Chrysler having issues with their cylinder on demand technology...Now if that doesn't leave everyone at the logical conclusion as to the cause of the problem, I do not know what else will.

FACT: Displacement on Demand or MDS (what ever you want to call it) is a complete failure. It failed in the 1920's with the early model Ford's; it failed in the 1980's when cadillac tried it, and now it is failing again.

Sorry for the long post. I'm frustrated to say the least, and Chrysler has a huge FU headed their way. LOL

Joe


Last edited by JosephA; 05/24/19 10:50 PM.
Re: Ram Hemi hydraulic lifter failure...oil related? [Re: BullyT] #5122632 06/01/19 08:44 PM
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JosephA Offline
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Update:

The MDS Delete kit has been ordered. Only time will tell.

On a side note, GM recognizes the same issue, and has released this information. It is clear that GM seems to care about their customers and product owners. I wonder when Chrysler is going to step up and do the same. As suspected, GM also believes their AFM lifter failures are a result of oil pressure issues and likely improper AFM deactivation/reactivation timing. Here is their release:

TECHNICAL BULLETINwww.melling.comMelling Engine Parts, P.O. Box 1188, Jackson, MI 49210 GM LS AFM Deactivation LifterIssuesWehave noticed an increase in the issues surrounding the replacement of deactivation lifters in GM LS engines with Active Fuel Management or AFM. After installing new lifters the original issuemay not have been corrected. Most lifters returned for analysis are found to be good. We have found that most lifter faultsare caused by oil pressure issues, or control issues.The AFM activation and deactivation is controlled by the Valve Lifter Oil Manifold or VLOM. The VLOM consists of 4 electronically operated solenoids and is bolted to the top of the engine block beneath the intake manifold assembly. Its job is to direct the flow of pressurized engine oil to the active fuel management intake and exhaust valve lifters. VLOM applies pressurized oil to the AFM lifters when cylinder deactivation is requested, and shuts off that supply of oil to reactivate those cylinders. Cylinder activation and deactivation are both supposed to occur on the base circle of the cam lobe, making the transition from four to eight cylinder mode unnoticeable to the driver. To control contamination a small replaceable oil filter is located in the VLOM inletoil passageway. The AFM oil pressure relief valve regulates the oil supplied to the VLOM and is located in the oil pan near the oil filter housing. The AFM system has an operating range from 27 PSI to 66 PSI of oil pressure. At higher engine speeds the high side of this operating range is controlled by the AFM oilpressure relief valve. At low enginespeeds the low side of the operating range will depend on the engines ability to produce oil pressureusing the flow of oil from the oil pump.The AFM lifter bores in these engines have a spec of .843-.844, and the deactivation lifters require 22 PSI of pressure to release the locking pins. Taking these two things into consideration a lifter bore that is even slightly worn could bleed off enough oil pressure to prevent the lifter from unlocking.In addition it has been reported that it is common to find the VLOM oil filter plugged and needing replacement on high mileage engineswith miss-fire fault codes. Melling has received AFM DEAC lifters back for warranty claims where the lifter has been stuck compressed, this condition can be caused by the VLOM commanding activation or deactivation at the wrong point in the cam’s rotation, either in the ramp, or at the lobe peak.Any time an engine has failed AFM lifters the lifter guides must be replaced, the lifter bores must be measured, and the VLOM must also be tested for proper operation, or replaced.In addition the VLOM oil filter must be replaced as well.

What say you Chrysler? Still blaming the lifter failures on bad batch's or customer neglect?

Joe

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