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Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787046
10/29/12 08:44 AM
10/29/12 08:44 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,936
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,936
N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Fred H.
I'd really like to know, because I'm paying nearly $6 a qt for what I believe is true PAO based synthetic. I use the 5w-30 in my car and the 15w-50 in my bike.

My feeling is that if Mobil One has changed over to a Group III oil, then I'll stop buying it, and look for a less expensive oil. I don't mind paying extra for Mobil One if it is indeed a PAO based oil, but if it isn't then I don't see why I should continue to pay extra for it.

Can anyone provide a definitive answer on what Mobil One uses for base stock, PAO or group III?
If you want primary PAO base you may wish to investigate Amsoil signature series but you will most likely pay a bit more for the performance increase - if you have the need for such a lubricant.


2019 VW Jetta S,6M OCI#0 3107mi-Castrol Edge Prof? VW508+OE Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#6 43467mi-Valvoline Adv 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787048
10/29/12 08:49 AM
10/29/12 08:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,478
Iowa
Samilcar Offline
Samilcar  Offline

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,478
Iowa
Originally Posted By: Fred H.
What does PU stand for?


PU=Pennzoil Ultra

As to the PAO content of Mobil 1, the best guess is that the regular Mobil 1 is mostly Group III, with PAO in the mix. The Extended Performance and High Mileage versions of Mobil 1 are mostly PAO with group III in the mix. Mobil 1 is not saying what percentages of the base oil is PAO, so these are just educated guesses.

Last edited by Samilcar; 10/29/12 08:53 AM.
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787060
10/29/12 09:14 AM
10/29/12 09:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,234
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

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Posts: 5,234
Fredericksburg, VA
It's ironic that this thread is going on at the same time as buster's thread which shows the PAO percentage of various M1 oils. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2786564#Post2786564
MSDS for viscosity grades not listed below can also be found.

PAO % in M1 from Japanese MSDSs
0W-20: 40-50
0W-30: 10-20
5W-30: 20-30

PAO is used largely to decrease volatility, Cold Cranking Visocosity, and cold Pumping Viscosity. Those are the three parameters that PAO definitely beats Group III and III+ in.

Alkylated napthalene and esters have potent effects in low doses when mixed with PAO and Group III, so it's unwise to not give their possible presence any possible credit.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Trav] #2787067
10/29/12 09:28 AM
10/29/12 09:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,895
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
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JHZR2  Offline
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New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Trav

If i buy a gold watch and get a heavy gold plated stainless watch with the same movement instead some here on BITOG would say it makes no difference.
It keeps time with the same accuracy, it sure looks the same and because the plating is so thick it will never wear off so its the same or equal.
Okay fine but will you pay $1500 an ounce for it? And if you did would you just accept it or sue them for fraud?
Not saying folks should sue the oil company but you get the point.

hide


The difference is that if the gold watch says 24kt gold, swiss made, and then it is plated and chinese, that is misrepresentation.

You can argue Grp III being or not being synthetic (hint - PAO gets its ethylene from the same cat crackers that Grp III gets its slack wax, its not some magical monomer feedstock from the gods that is used for PAO... just the same crude derived stuff), but there is no claim, even from the blenders that sell more "synthetic" (PAO/POE) fluids as to the specific ratios, quantities and types. But what we know is that the blenders that use majority PAO/POE have a price that is double Mobil 1. So when the OP wants to go for a "cheaper" oil, well, he already has it; and, when studied from UOA and other aspects, there is no compelling benefit to having that majority of any specific base stock.

Why? Because it is such a complex chemical mixture with so many things going into it, that no one component, even if magic basestock x is put in at high fractions, does all the heavy lifting and verifies the performance for most practical aspects, cold temperature flow perhaps aside.

Nope, its far more like saying that you want a meal and one chef uses the more expensive boutique ingredients for most everything, and the other chef only uses them for the few flavors that are the most critical, and both meals in the end sustain and taste very close to one another, but one is twice as expensive.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787072
10/29/12 09:31 AM
10/29/12 09:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 675
Lynchburg, Va
JasonC Offline
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Posts: 675
Lynchburg, Va
I was under impression that Mobil 1's primary ingredient is virgin baby tears? Is that not so?


2012 Buick Verano 2.4
2006 Ford Mustang GT Convertible
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787077
10/29/12 09:38 AM
10/29/12 09:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,781
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,781
Dallas,Tx USA
Do you buy it at Walmart? You can get both those weights in their 5 quart jugs really cheap. It`s $22 a jug here where I live.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787078
10/29/12 09:40 AM
10/29/12 09:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,781
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,781
Dallas,Tx USA
MJ from Exxon told me the 15W50 is pao/ester based with no grp III.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Kuato] #2787118
10/29/12 10:32 AM
10/29/12 10:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,895
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
Global Moderator
JHZR2  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,895
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is very short sighted to pick an oil because you demand that it have X basestock.

Especially if you cannot specifically quantify by UOA or other analytical result, why you need PAO, ester, etc.

The "value proposition" argument really just doesnt cut it.

I can appreciate that we all want the best value for our money, but utilizing one chemical basestock as that basis is just silly.

What performance aspect are you trying to maximize?


I think a little respect is in order here, and deserved for the OP same as what you would demand for yourself.

An explanation is not owed, nor required. He simply wants to know about the formulation. It is not necessary to engage in The Inquisition to simply answer the question.
shrug


There is no disrespect intended - just rational basis for the discussion at hand; this question comes up even as often as a few times a week in very similar forms. A cursory look at older threads would dig up the same request and discussion over and over again.

See JAG's post just above. It references yet another thread discussing this.

If there is to be any semblance of learning or trading of rational and correct thought on here, it should include a discussion of the criteria that is of interest. Anytime that anyone uses the basis of "I want x, because I just have to have x", without basis, it is likely not optimal.

I invite the OP to procure some pure 11cSt PAO and put it in his engine, since it is so important. He wont like the result. That's not being rude or disrespectful, that is being realistic.

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Trav] #2787125
10/29/12 10:43 AM
10/29/12 10:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,246
Hudson, NH
LeakySeals Offline
LeakySeals  Offline

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Posts: 7,246
Hudson, NH
Trav,
Whatever was leaked here is simply a company discussing how to market its product while protecting its proprietary brew. It may or may not be the final decision. It may or may not be people that know about oil at all. Maybe its the technical publication writers. Who knows what context this was in.

Fully disclosing what makes you different/special/unique is a huge mistake. I see no issue here. Its how all companies operate to keep a competitive edge.


06 Escalade 6.0L LQ9 AWD 167k M1 0w40
03 Maxima 3.5L POS 170k ST HM 10w30
05 Malibu Classic 2.2 111k M1 5w30
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: JHZR2] #2787218
10/29/12 12:27 PM
10/29/12 12:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 37,506
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 37,506
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I invite the OP to procure some pure 11cSt PAO and put it in his engine, since it is so important. He wont like the result. That's not being rude or disrespectful, that is being realistic.

Agreed. There is more to a good oil than just one particular ingredient. PAO alone is not the holy grail, as much as some members on here would like to believe so.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Quattro Pete] #2787445
10/29/12 05:08 PM
10/29/12 05:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21,934
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 21,934
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Quote:
There is more to a good oil than just one particular ingredient. PAO alone is not the holy grail

True but its funny that every inferior base stock is compared to it isn't it.
Fact is it is a superior base stock to GP III comparing apples to apples as far as the add pack goes.
Same add pack in both and PAO will out perform the GP III.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
The difference is that if the gold watch says 24kt gold, swiss made, and then it is plated and chinese, that is misrepresentation.

You can argue Grp III being or not being synthetic (hint - PAO gets its ethylene from the same cat crackers that Grp III gets its slack wax


Take a 90's Breitling 18K and SS, the gold was a wrap (thicker than a plating)on the bracelet links. Some resellers advertise 18K and SS which is blatantly false.
The later models were pure 18K links not 18K wrapped SS.
Both were Breitling Swiss made with the same 7750 base movement.

If PAO gets comes from the same cat crackers as GP III then why was there a PAO shortage and no shortage of GP III?
If it were that simple it doesn't seem right that PAO would be in short supply according to Mobil.
Quote:
To support Mobil 1 growth
Global PAO capacity is limited. As we quickly approach this limit

I don't know, just asking.

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Whatever was leaked here is simply a company discussing how to market its product while protecting its proprietary brew

Sorry Leaky i disagree on this point. The document clearly show how they were planing to produce bald faced lies (strong language i know but its a fact, call a spade a spade) ) to a particular market segment and how to hide documentation about the product from anyone who asked questions.
Shell has no problem telling people their Ultra GPIV/GTL

This is my own personal feelings on this subject. Its about honesty and integrity not just performance.
I'm not interesting in getting into an argument over this as its my opinion. the OP said..
Quote:
My feeling is that if Mobil One has changed over to a Group III oil, then I'll stop buying it, and look for a less expensive oil. I don't mind paying extra for Mobil One if it is indeed a PAO based oil, but if it isn't then I don't see why I should continue to pay extra for it.


That is a position i agree 100% with.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787466
10/29/12 05:28 PM
10/29/12 05:28 PM
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Saskatoon canada
Clevy Offline
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Saskatoon canada
This is one of the reasons I just don't like mobil 1 as a whole. That leaked document shows that they are prepared to say whatever they have to(in the unlikely event of that type of question)to anyone with any particular question ad to their basestocks.
I keep reading that performance is what matters,not the basestock. Well in the case of the 0w-40 their new formulation doesn't perform as well as the previous formulation,even though it meets the same specs.
In the case of the advanced fuel economy the elevated % of pao is why it saves fuel,so if it was formulated differently would the end result be the same.
I'm not prepared to spend anymore money on mobil products. Their high price no longer reflects the stuff in the bottle.
And in tigs examples,I wonder if he used any synthetic oil at 10000 mile drains would he get the same clean engine. Probably.
I think I'm going to stick with sopus and liqui-moly,and royal purple whenever it comes on sale. That mobil vs rp thread when the poster provided pics of a mobil cam with half the mileage of an rp cam,and the wear scar on the mobil cam sold me on that their products are average,yet their genius marketing team had many convinced it's the greatest stuff on earth. I'm not convinced.
I am going to buy a couple of cases of the new Mazda oil though. That stuff looks perfect for my stash to help thin all the thick I have.
So op. Yes mobil 1 only has a couple oils left with any pao left,up to you to decide if you want to support them.


2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter
Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787654
10/29/12 08:29 PM
10/29/12 08:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,203
Illinois
tig1 Offline
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Posts: 14,203
Illinois
Ah! M1, the oil followers love to bash! horse

Last edited by tig1; 10/29/12 08:29 PM.

2007 Ford Fusion 243,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 71K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Fred H.] #2787660
10/29/12 08:34 PM
10/29/12 08:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,781
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content

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I`d still use RP if I could get it at the $6 a quart like I used to *and* if they still had the Synerlec oils readily available otc.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30

Re: Is Mobil One PAO or Group III based??? [Re: Clevy] #2787756
10/29/12 11:14 PM
10/29/12 11:14 PM
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New Jersey
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Originally Posted By: Clevy

I'm not prepared to spend anymore money on mobil products. Their high price no longer reflects the stuff in the bottle.


So show me a high PAO content oil that sells at the same price as M1. The last M1 I bought was $25.49 for 5 quarts.

Do please show me how M1 is so expensive per quart compared to high PAO oils. And I paid what I stated without coupons or rebates, so please keep it apples to apples.

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