Is it possible a thinner oil would take on engine heat faster?
I thought the better the oil, the LESS it was supposed to heat up?
I thought the better the oil, the LESS it was supposed to heat up?
0W20 benefit you can actually see...
- Thread starter Falken
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Is it possible a thinner oil would take on engine heat faster?
I thought the better the oil, the LESS it was supposed to heat up?
No.
Oil serves an important cooling function in an engine. If it didn't then it wouldn't be drawing heat away from engine parts as it flows through an engine. The faster the oil flows, the more effective it is in keeping the temperature of critical parts of the engine like the bearings under control.
The lighter the oil the faster it flows with the limiting factor being maintainimg an adequate film thickness especially the oil wedge in the bearings.
I don't know if the rate of oil heating up in a cold engine with lighter oil is any faster than heavier oil per se but what does speed up things most is how hard you drive your car during the warming up process. While it's best to keep the rev's down until the oil has thinning out at it's own rate, lighter and especially high VI oils do allow an engine to rev more freely when cold and if you take advantage of that fact, that alone will decrease warm-up times noticeably.
I think that is the effect that Falken has noticed.
Is it possible a thinner oil would take on engine heat faster?
I thought the better the oil, the LESS it was supposed to heat up?
No.
Oil serves an important cooling function in an engine. If it didn't then it wouldn't be drawing heat away from engine parts as it flows through an engine. The faster the oil flows, the more effective it is in keeping the temperature of critical parts of the engine like the bearings under control.
The lighter the oil the faster it flows with the limiting factor being maintainimg an adequate film thickness especially the oil wedge in the bearings.
I don't know if the rate of oil heating up in a cold engine with lighter oil is any faster than heavier oil per se but what does speed up things most is how hard you drive your car during the warming up process. While it's best to keep the rev's down until the oil has thinning out at it's own rate, lighter and especially high VI oils do allow an engine to rev more freely when cold and if you take advantage of that fact, that alone will decrease warm-up times noticeably.
I think that is the effect that Falken has noticed.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
If a different oil in otherwise identical conditions causes an engine to warm up noticeably faster "much faster",I would never use it again.
It is doing something very wrong.
Benefit?? No way.
What's wrong with thinner oil cause an engine to warm up noticeably faster in otherwise identical conditions ?
Are you serious?
I'll assume you are not joking:
Any oil that makes the engine get hotter "much faster" is doing something horribly wrong.
High friction or drag is NOT a benefit!
Maybe the OP is attributing the faster warm up to oil, when it is actually a sender or thermostat - something like that.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
If a different oil in otherwise identical conditions causes an engine to warm up noticeably faster "much faster",I would never use it again.
It is doing something very wrong.
Benefit?? No way.
What's wrong with thinner oil cause an engine to warm up noticeably faster in otherwise identical conditions ?
Are you serious?
I'll assume you are not joking:
Any oil that makes the engine get hotter "much faster" is doing something horribly wrong.
High friction or drag is NOT a benefit!
Maybe the OP is attributing the faster warm up to oil, when it is actually a sender or thermostat - something like that.
Originally Posted By: Falken
When I drive my car now after changing the oil from QSUD 5W20 to 0W20 the cold engine light goes out much faster, meaning the car has reached "operating temperature".
So, I am glad to report one benefit that I don't have to trust the science behind it... Your car warms up faster it is more fuel efficient, and less pollution.
does the heater start blowing heat faster? If it does, I would stay away from that oil.
When I drive my car now after changing the oil from QSUD 5W20 to 0W20 the cold engine light goes out much faster, meaning the car has reached "operating temperature".
So, I am glad to report one benefit that I don't have to trust the science behind it... Your car warms up faster it is more fuel efficient, and less pollution.
does the heater start blowing heat faster? If it does, I would stay away from that oil.
Things seem normal at operating temp... I just think a thinner oil may allow the temps to reach equilibrium faster.
A thicker, denser oil with a heavier molecular weight with slower moving molecules less so.
According to the UOAs, 0W20 seems to do its job so I guess I won't worry too much...
A temp gauge would have been nice in my car rather than a cold light.
A thicker, denser oil with a heavier molecular weight with slower moving molecules less so.
According to the UOAs, 0W20 seems to do its job so I guess I won't worry too much...
A temp gauge would have been nice in my car rather than a cold light.
And here I thought that thinner oils cooled better...
One more proof that people will "feel" what they want to feel when the expectation to see change is high enough.
Can someone tally up all the wonderful properties that Toyota 0w20 has?
So far I've seen "much better fuel economy" based on one tank of gas, "much better power" and now "the cold light goes out much faster".
I see a disturbing pattern here when it comes to this oil.
One more proof that people will "feel" what they want to feel when the expectation to see change is high enough.
Can someone tally up all the wonderful properties that Toyota 0w20 has?
So far I've seen "much better fuel economy" based on one tank of gas, "much better power" and now "the cold light goes out much faster".
I see a disturbing pattern here when it comes to this oil.
Originally Posted By: Falken
A temp gauge would have been nice in my car rather than a cold light.
Most factory equipped ones are just a fancy light now, anyway. They move to a predetermined spot on the gauge, after a certain trigger has occured (reaching a minimum temperature, timer, etc.). Once it gets to that spot, it stays there, regardless if the temperature in reality fluctuates (which it will in normal operation). Designed that way because too many people would complain about the gauge going up and down in temperature. It's now just a glorified idiot light.
A temp gauge would have been nice in my car rather than a cold light.
Most factory equipped ones are just a fancy light now, anyway. They move to a predetermined spot on the gauge, after a certain trigger has occured (reaching a minimum temperature, timer, etc.). Once it gets to that spot, it stays there, regardless if the temperature in reality fluctuates (which it will in normal operation). Designed that way because too many people would complain about the gauge going up and down in temperature. It's now just a glorified idiot light.
I think it is important to look at the differences from the steady state, as when the car is going a steady 60 MPH down the highway and the oil is up to a stable temperature.
If we now compare a 20 grade to a 40 grade oil there will be differences. The 20 grade will be thinner and flow a little faster and have a little less internal friction. There should be a slightly less oil sump baseline temperature. There should be a slight increase in MPG and in available power. Both the higher flow of the 20 grade oil and the lesser internal friction will lead to the internal metal parts being a little cooler.
At start up the engine will warm on a fairly uniform slope regardless of a 0W vs a 10W -30 grade oil as an example. But the thinner 0W oil will flow through the engine faster and equilibrate with the internals sooner.
So it is a mistake to say the engine is warming faster with the thinner start up oil, it is the oil that is at first warming faster. In the end however, the steady state will be a higher temperature with a thicker oil.
aehaas
If we now compare a 20 grade to a 40 grade oil there will be differences. The 20 grade will be thinner and flow a little faster and have a little less internal friction. There should be a slightly less oil sump baseline temperature. There should be a slight increase in MPG and in available power. Both the higher flow of the 20 grade oil and the lesser internal friction will lead to the internal metal parts being a little cooler.
At start up the engine will warm on a fairly uniform slope regardless of a 0W vs a 10W -30 grade oil as an example. But the thinner 0W oil will flow through the engine faster and equilibrate with the internals sooner.
So it is a mistake to say the engine is warming faster with the thinner start up oil, it is the oil that is at first warming faster. In the end however, the steady state will be a higher temperature with a thicker oil.
aehaas
Just thought I'd update:
I can make moderate mileage gains per tank of fuel that I would normally have to struggle to achieve by just getting in the car and driving.
The warmup that the car gets is slowly driving down the parking lot at the same speed anyone would in a parking lot.
I have come to the conclusion that the oil being thin purely mimics the operational advantages of thin hot oil, only it can be done cold.
When I start my engine in the morning (it is already starting to get chilly in the mornings now and it's only early August) I have to be a lot gentler with the key as the starter turns the engine a lot quicker with that watery oil so I now have to be careful not to over start the car.
I'm guessing the counter weights on the crank and the oil flow resistance drag on the engine just churn and fly through this thin stuff like it isn't even there.
Very happy with this, I look forward to the next tank of fuel to see if the results are similar.
I don't doubt, with chilly weather in the equation, 4% efficiency gains are real on 0W20, I believe as mentioned by Caterham.
Toyota 0W20 is my next fill... this is fun stuff when you see lab engineering translate into real world gains in FE, and it isn't completely snake "oil"
I can make moderate mileage gains per tank of fuel that I would normally have to struggle to achieve by just getting in the car and driving.
The warmup that the car gets is slowly driving down the parking lot at the same speed anyone would in a parking lot.
I have come to the conclusion that the oil being thin purely mimics the operational advantages of thin hot oil, only it can be done cold.
When I start my engine in the morning (it is already starting to get chilly in the mornings now and it's only early August) I have to be a lot gentler with the key as the starter turns the engine a lot quicker with that watery oil so I now have to be careful not to over start the car.
I'm guessing the counter weights on the crank and the oil flow resistance drag on the engine just churn and fly through this thin stuff like it isn't even there.
Very happy with this, I look forward to the next tank of fuel to see if the results are similar.
I don't doubt, with chilly weather in the equation, 4% efficiency gains are real on 0W20, I believe as mentioned by Caterham.
Toyota 0W20 is my next fill... this is fun stuff when you see lab engineering translate into real world gains in FE, and it isn't completely snake "oil"
If quicker heating is more friction, [which I think it is] that's something I'd want less of.
demarpaint,
If you have a thin liquid you are heating on a stove and you are stirring it quicker than thicker liquid that is stirred slower:
Which liquid will reach temperature equilibrium first?
I am just assuming tribology and addpack design are protecting the engine at the same time as the oil thickens up toward its weight at operating temperature.
Also, there may be more friction but significantly less wear due to faster flow and heating curve compared to the alternative offered by thicker slower oil....
I'm reaching, I know... But there must be more to 0W20 than marketing, all the manufacturers are going to 0WX it seems for CAFE targets...
I am a paying consumer and I hate to "drink the cool aid"... Was at Canadian Tire today and Mobil1 AFE 0W20 even has a listing of the amount of $$$ the oil will save you each year... I can only keep quiet about all this when people observe, and pay for a product, THEN it passes a teardown after 200K Miles IMO.
Like I said before, I am MORE than happy to dump this 0W20 "Kool-Aid" snake oil in my car, as gas is extremely expensive now. It is 5.50$ US/Gal right now in Montreal. This is an "Oilpocalypse" by American standards.
If my engine lives only 100K miles the rust belt will have eaten this vehicle anyway. Caterham, AEHaas have all taken a swing at this stuff and I will have to say I'm on the "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" bandwagon.
There, I said it. Now I feel better. Laugh as I enjoy my 0W20... Laugh I say!!!
If you have a thin liquid you are heating on a stove and you are stirring it quicker than thicker liquid that is stirred slower:
Which liquid will reach temperature equilibrium first?
I am just assuming tribology and addpack design are protecting the engine at the same time as the oil thickens up toward its weight at operating temperature.
Also, there may be more friction but significantly less wear due to faster flow and heating curve compared to the alternative offered by thicker slower oil....
I'm reaching, I know... But there must be more to 0W20 than marketing, all the manufacturers are going to 0WX it seems for CAFE targets...
I am a paying consumer and I hate to "drink the cool aid"... Was at Canadian Tire today and Mobil1 AFE 0W20 even has a listing of the amount of $$$ the oil will save you each year... I can only keep quiet about all this when people observe, and pay for a product, THEN it passes a teardown after 200K Miles IMO.
Like I said before, I am MORE than happy to dump this 0W20 "Kool-Aid" snake oil in my car, as gas is extremely expensive now. It is 5.50$ US/Gal right now in Montreal. This is an "Oilpocalypse" by American standards.
If my engine lives only 100K miles the rust belt will have eaten this vehicle anyway. Caterham, AEHaas have all taken a swing at this stuff and I will have to say I'm on the "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" bandwagon.
There, I said it. Now I feel better. Laugh as I enjoy my 0W20... Laugh I say!!!
Thanks tig1, I give you a big Tom Cruise hug!! A big one!
I won't say, "0W20!! IM IN LOVE" quite yet, or will I jump on Oprah's sofa over it (ok I will or would whichever),,,
But: by traditional standards when you look through the measurement window side of a quart of 0W20 in the store and you move the bottle around just to see HOW thin this stuff is at room temperature, it is pretty daring to dump this stuff into an engine.
It really is that thin.
I won't say, "0W20!! IM IN LOVE" quite yet, or will I jump on Oprah's sofa over it (ok I will or would whichever),,,
But: by traditional standards when you look through the measurement window side of a quart of 0W20 in the store and you move the bottle around just to see HOW thin this stuff is at room temperature, it is pretty daring to dump this stuff into an engine.
It really is that thin.
Originally Posted By: Falken
demarpaint,
If you have a thin liquid you are heating on a stove and you are stirring it quicker than thicker liquid that is stirred slower:
Which liquid will reach temperature equilibrium first?
I am just assuming tribology and addpack design are protecting the engine at the same time as the oil thickens up toward its weight at operating temperature.
Also, there may be more friction but significantly less wear due to faster flow and heating curve compared to the alternative offered by thicker slower oil....
I'm reaching, I know... But there must be more to 0W20 than marketing, all the manufacturers are going to 0WX it seems for CAFE targets...
I am a paying consumer and I hate to "drink the cool aid"... Was at Canadian Tire today and Mobil1 AFE 0W20 even has a listing of the amount of $$$ the oil will save you each year... I can only keep quiet about all this when people observe, and pay for a product, THEN it passes a teardown after 200K Miles IMO.
Like I said before, I am MORE than happy to dump this 0W20 "Kool-Aid" snake oil in my car, as gas is extremely expensive now. It is 5.50$ US/Gal right now in Montreal. This is an "Oilpocalypse" by American standards.
If my engine lives only 100K miles the rust belt will have eaten this vehicle anyway. Caterham, AEHaas have all taken a swing at this stuff and I will have to say I'm on the "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" bandwagon.
There, I said it. Now I feel better. Laugh as I enjoy my 0W20... Laugh I say!!!
I'm running Edge 0W20 SM which was one of the thinner 0W20 oils, up until they killed it with the SN formulation. I'm not against thin oils at all, I just re-think things from time to time. What concerns me about the 20 grade oils is there are a lot of opinions but no real hardcore facts that they are actually better at protecting an engine than a 30 grade oil would. Germany and the Autobahn come to mind. Take an American car spec'd for 20 grade oil, ship it over to Germany and run it a month on the Autobahn at those speeds with a 20 grade oil and see how well it holds up. Take the same car once again and run it on a 30 grade and see what holds up better. Yea I know this us the USA. Just thinking out loud that's all.
How about this, a new driver driving a car with a stick shift lugging the engine when its hot. Which would protect the bearings better, a 20 or 30 grade oil?
demarpaint,
If you have a thin liquid you are heating on a stove and you are stirring it quicker than thicker liquid that is stirred slower:
Which liquid will reach temperature equilibrium first?
I am just assuming tribology and addpack design are protecting the engine at the same time as the oil thickens up toward its weight at operating temperature.
Also, there may be more friction but significantly less wear due to faster flow and heating curve compared to the alternative offered by thicker slower oil....
I'm reaching, I know... But there must be more to 0W20 than marketing, all the manufacturers are going to 0WX it seems for CAFE targets...
I am a paying consumer and I hate to "drink the cool aid"... Was at Canadian Tire today and Mobil1 AFE 0W20 even has a listing of the amount of $$$ the oil will save you each year... I can only keep quiet about all this when people observe, and pay for a product, THEN it passes a teardown after 200K Miles IMO.
Like I said before, I am MORE than happy to dump this 0W20 "Kool-Aid" snake oil in my car, as gas is extremely expensive now. It is 5.50$ US/Gal right now in Montreal. This is an "Oilpocalypse" by American standards.
If my engine lives only 100K miles the rust belt will have eaten this vehicle anyway. Caterham, AEHaas have all taken a swing at this stuff and I will have to say I'm on the "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary" bandwagon.
There, I said it. Now I feel better. Laugh as I enjoy my 0W20... Laugh I say!!!
I'm running Edge 0W20 SM which was one of the thinner 0W20 oils, up until they killed it with the SN formulation. I'm not against thin oils at all, I just re-think things from time to time. What concerns me about the 20 grade oils is there are a lot of opinions but no real hardcore facts that they are actually better at protecting an engine than a 30 grade oil would. Germany and the Autobahn come to mind. Take an American car spec'd for 20 grade oil, ship it over to Germany and run it a month on the Autobahn at those speeds with a 20 grade oil and see how well it holds up. Take the same car once again and run it on a 30 grade and see what holds up better. Yea I know this us the USA. Just thinking out loud that's all.
How about this, a new driver driving a car with a stick shift lugging the engine when its hot. Which would protect the bearings better, a 20 or 30 grade oil?
demarpaint,
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
Originally Posted By: Falken
Thanks tig1, I give you a big Tom Cruise hug!! A big one!
I won't say, "0W20!! IM IN LOVE" quite yet, or will I jump on Oprah's sofa over it (ok I will or would whichever),,,
But: by traditional standards when you look through the measurement window side of a quart of 0W20 in the store and you move the bottle around just to see HOW thin this stuff is at room temperature, it is pretty daring to dump this stuff into an engine.
It really is that thin.
Originally Posted By: Falken
demarpaint,
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
I'm at 100K on both Fords. Give me 10 more years. Many Fords (police and cabs) have done that with 5-20.
Thanks tig1, I give you a big Tom Cruise hug!! A big one!
I won't say, "0W20!! IM IN LOVE" quite yet, or will I jump on Oprah's sofa over it (ok I will or would whichever),,,
But: by traditional standards when you look through the measurement window side of a quart of 0W20 in the store and you move the bottle around just to see HOW thin this stuff is at room temperature, it is pretty daring to dump this stuff into an engine.
It really is that thin.
Originally Posted By: Falken
demarpaint,
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
I'm at 100K on both Fords. Give me 10 more years. Many Fords (police and cabs) have done that with 5-20.
Originally Posted By: Falken
demarpaint,
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
I'm sure there are more cars that I can count that made it well over 100K miles on 20 grade oils. But honestly there are more that went that distance on a 30 grade oil. Which have less wear? I don't have an answer. I do know this, in my 5W-20 engine lugging question I'd want the 30 grade oil. If I was living in Germany with an American car calling for 5W20, it would be out so fast your head would spin and I'd pour the 30 grade in warranty or not. I'm really rethinking my position on this. Some of the newer DI engines call for 30 grade oil instead of 20 grade oil. I guess they need that extra margin in the event of fuel dilution. If a 20 grade gets cut with gasoline it isn't going to offer as much protection as a 30 grade would getting cut with the same amount of gas.
demarpaint,
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
Do this as a test. When you are brushing your teeth and you have toothpaste with pumice in it crunch it between your teeth before you rinse out your mouth... Your teeth aren't touching, the pumice is the sacraficial barrier like a moly or a zinc would be.
I hope anyway... I wonder when we'll hear of a first engine with 300k Miles on it ALL on 0W20.
I'm sure there are more cars that I can count that made it well over 100K miles on 20 grade oils. But honestly there are more that went that distance on a 30 grade oil. Which have less wear? I don't have an answer. I do know this, in my 5W-20 engine lugging question I'd want the 30 grade oil. If I was living in Germany with an American car calling for 5W20, it would be out so fast your head would spin and I'd pour the 30 grade in warranty or not. I'm really rethinking my position on this. Some of the newer DI engines call for 30 grade oil instead of 20 grade oil. I guess they need that extra margin in the event of fuel dilution. If a 20 grade gets cut with gasoline it isn't going to offer as much protection as a 30 grade would getting cut with the same amount of gas.
Originally Posted By: Falken
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
You need to do some reading here because it is clear you're making stuff up as you go along to justify your placebo effect.
The magic you're talking about is called boundary lubrication and ALL oils have additives to provide that last line of defense when metal to metal contact happens, but you don't want that condition to occur on regular basis.
I, as others, have nothing against thin oils, but some of the claims posted in this thread and others are just ridiculous.
I am guessing this thin magic happens with the add pack when the oil film tears in a lugging engine... the babbet actually doesn't touch because of the AW additives giving a final barrier.
You need to do some reading here because it is clear you're making stuff up as you go along to justify your placebo effect.
The magic you're talking about is called boundary lubrication and ALL oils have additives to provide that last line of defense when metal to metal contact happens, but you don't want that condition to occur on regular basis.
I, as others, have nothing against thin oils, but some of the claims posted in this thread and others are just ridiculous.
- Status
Similar threads
