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#2825770 - 12/06/12 10:12 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: Tom NJ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 33578
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: OpelFever

According to this oil test Gokhan posted the expensive boutique-oils don't look so good.

http://bmwservice.livejournal.com/27699.html

Despite all the godly PAO and esters and whatnot the results are not what you would expect.


Cooking an oil at over 700°F in a glass flask and visually evaluating the sludge formed is utterly meaningless. The conditions are not even close to an automotive engine and no correlation to engine performance has been established. No scientific conclusions whatsoever can be drawn from such testing, and the results are more apt to mislead than guide.

The engine and/or fleet tests conducted for certification under API, ILSAC, and ACEA standards are run is actual engines under very severe conditions with standardized equipment and procedures and all variables under control. These are the only scientifically valid methods for evaluating motor oil performance in engines. Everything else is marketing.

Your best guide for selecting motor oils is certification under the official specifications relevant to your engine/environment/driving pattern.

Tom NJ


Extremely well put! thumbsup
_________________________
2016 Durango Limited
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT

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#2825778 - 12/06/12 10:18 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: dparm]
gpshumway Offline


Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 417
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
The exact deposit composition for each oil is something which would require lots of testing to determine, but really, what's the point? Your engine is going to have much bigger problems than sludge if your oil sees temperatures over 500*F, heck over 300*F usually spells trouble. The standard NOACK test is as extreme as any test needs to be.

Ester based oils were first developed for gas turbine engines where the operating temperatures are substantially higher than piston engines. In those applications esters are the only choice, but in road going piston engines other factors are much more important than ultra-high temperature stability.
_________________________
2007 Subaru WRX
2011 Honda Civic EX

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#2825840 - 12/06/12 11:16 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: OpelFever]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 1924
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: OpelFever
While I agree with everything you posted, I would like some kind of rational explanation as to why some of the oils left almost no residue while others left a lot of burned sludge?

Eventhough there may be no relevance to actual engine operation, it's odd that similarly specced oils react so differently to heat.

As far as marketing goes, I don't think the test favoured any brand or specific oil and was more of an armchair science project.


700°F is beyond the thermal stability on many components in motor oil, and the rate of oxidation is thousands of time higher than what an engine sees. The chemical reactions that take place under these conditions bear no resemblance to the reactions taking place in an engine. An additive that out performs all others in an engine may fall apart at 700°F, but who cares if it never sees those temperatures. If you ran the test at 1,000°F for ten hours, all of the oils would turn to carbon, but that doesn't mean they are all the same.

My marketing comment refers to companies that use non-standard tests to promote their products.

Tom NJ

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#2825852 - 12/06/12 11:26 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: Tom NJ]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 2150
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ

My marketing comment refers to companies that use non-standard tests to promote their products.

Tom NJ

Before you know it, companies will be using machines made for testing gear oils to market their engine oils. Oh wait, nevermind! LOL

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Mobil 1 0W-40

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#2825860 - 12/06/12 11:32 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
robertcope Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 911
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: turbokick

As I said I don't expect anything, I have used them (M1 for years) and I know from personal experience (on the track) that Motul 300V performs way better compared to Mobil 1. When you hold your engin above 5000rpm for some time the difference became quite noticeable.
Try making a whole drift/track day and you'll see what's the difference between PAO/Ester high-priced oils and the group 3 ¨synthetics¨.


I'll bite on this one. I've had my car on track for about 45 days this year alone. Nobody would accuse me of being a "granny" driver. I've run M1 0W40, RL 0W30, and RL 20WT Race oil. I can't tell a difference between them. What am I doing wrong? What big difference should I be noticing?



robert


Edited by Bill in Utah (12/08/12 09:56 AM)
Edit Reason: please embed the videos to prevent them from being removed

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#2825971 - 12/06/12 01:21 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: Tom NJ]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ

700°F is beyond the thermal stability on many components in motor oil, and the rate of oxidation is thousands of time higher than what an engine sees. The chemical reactions that take place under these conditions bear no resemblance to the reactions taking place in an engine. An additive that out performs all others in an engine may fall apart at 700°F, but who cares if it never sees those temperatures. If you ran the test at 1,000°F for ten hours, all of the oils would turn to carbon, but that doesn't mean they are all the same.

My marketing comment refers to companies that use non-standard tests to promote their products.

Tom NJ


Quite well formulated, I completly agree.

It is proved that all kind of tests on engine oils, which consist of cooking above 700F, friction machines etc. are irrelevant to a real engine oil test, don't prove or disprove anything, create conditions that have nothing to do with the lubrication of an engine.
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BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2825985 - 12/06/12 01:28 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: robertcope]
turbokick Offline


Registered: 09/10/12
Posts: 50
Loc: East Of Heaven
Originally Posted By: robertcope

I'll bite on this one. I've had my car on track for about 45 days this year alone. Nobody would accuse me of being a "granny" driver. I've run M1 0W40, RL 0W30, and RL 20WT Race oil. I can't tell a difference between them. What am I doing wrong? What big difference should I be noticing?



robert




It's your car man, you can use whatever you want. If you think that holding an engine near the rev. limiter for hours in a 40C summer day is the same with a 7$ per cuart oil and with a 20$ per cuart one, it's your choice.
_________________________
BMW 323ti compact - Motul 300V Competition 15W-50
Motul Products in LSD, tranny, brakes

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#2825993 - 12/06/12 01:38 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: turbokick]
robertcope Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 911
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: turbokick

It's your car man, you can use whatever you want. If you think that holding an engine near the rev. limiter for hours in a 40C summer day is the same with a 7$ per cuart oil and with a 20$ per cuart one, it's your choice.


I do drive in the summer here in Texas, where it can easily be 100F+ ambient and well over 120F+ on the asphalt. So far my motors have all held together just fine. I've got about 30K track miles on this one.

You clearly stated that the difference was big and noticeable. What should I be feeling for when I'm out on the track this weekend?

robert

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#2826039 - 12/06/12 02:16 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: bluesubie]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30295
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ

My marketing comment refers to companies that use non-standard tests to promote their products.

Tom NJ

Before you know it, companies will be using machines made for testing gear oils to market their engine oils. Oh wait, nevermind! LOL

-Dennis


crackmeup
_________________________


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#2826060 - 12/06/12 02:28 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: dparm]
Nickdfresh Offline


Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 5260
Loc: Buffalo, NY
How does anyone pretend to know the composition of Mobil 1 0W-40? It may indeed contain group III+, but I bet a tidy sum that it's at least a blend of III+ and IV...


Edited by Nickdfresh (12/06/12 02:28 PM)

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#2826576 - 12/06/12 11:20 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: Nickdfresh]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10652
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
How does anyone pretend to know the composition of Mobil 1 0W-40?

Just like how they pretend to know the composition of most oils: Repetition.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2826579 - 12/06/12 11:23 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 33578
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
How does anyone pretend to know the composition of Mobil 1 0W-40?

Repetition.


LOL! Not that it matters anyway. The oil has an arms-long list of certs and approvals, holds its grade, has a very low NOACK and lasts an extremely long time in use. It is an exceptional lubricant.
_________________________
2016 Durango Limited
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT

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#2826584 - 12/06/12 11:29 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: OVERKILL]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10652
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
LOL! Not that it matters anyway. The oil has an arms-long list of certs and approvals, holds its grade, has a very low NOACK and lasts an extremely long time in use. It is an exceptional lubricant.

What are you, a Mobil 1 fanboy? Keep that stuff to yourself. Some of us don't have blind faith in everything the big companies tell us.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go buy this oil I read about on the Internet.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#2826598 - 12/06/12 11:41 PM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: d00df00d]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 33578
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
LOL! Not that it matters anyway. The oil has an arms-long list of certs and approvals, holds its grade, has a very low NOACK and lasts an extremely long time in use. It is an exceptional lubricant.

What are you, a Mobil 1 fanboy? Keep that stuff to yourself. Some of us don't have blind faith in everything the big companies tell us.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go buy this oil I read about on the Internet.


BAH HAHAHHAHA! Well done sir grin
_________________________
2016 Durango Limited
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT

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#2826618 - 12/07/12 12:17 AM Re: Motul 300V Ester Core oil launched [Re: robertcope]
04SVT Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 133
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: robertcope
Originally Posted By: turbokick

It's your car man, you can use whatever you want. If you think that holding an engine near the rev. limiter for hours in a 40C summer day is the same with a 7$ per cuart oil and with a 20$ per cuart one, it's your choice.


I do drive in the summer here in Texas, where it can easily be 100F+ ambient and well over 120F+ on the asphalt. So far my motors have all held together just fine. I've got about 30K track miles on this one.

You clearly stated that the difference was big and noticeable. What should I be feeling for when I'm out on the track this weekend?

robert


Turbokick, I'm curious of the answer to this as well. I've never notice a real world difference between the two...and I'm a bit inclined to believe I have an engine that produces quite a bit more power than 95% of the cars on a road coarse track.


Edited by 04SVT (12/07/12 12:20 AM)

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