Last year when due for wear, I upgraded a couple of the cars (because of the rebates) and purchased the Wagner Thermo Quiet Ceramic Brake Pads. Mainly to reduce brake dust that accumulates on the front aluminum wheels. However only on my 2005 Pontiac Vibe FWD has there been brake noise starting to be quite loud while going in reverse out of the driveway. I installed new rotors and pads not long ago. Don't have the date off the top of my head, but I pulled the wheels off, split the calipers, lubed the pins and reinstalled. I noticed no unusual wear. I ran a google search and found a forum link somewhere on here and someone mentioned the noise could be coming from the clips pressed into the piston cups. Has anyone else heard of this happening ?
Wagner Thermo Quiet Ceramic Brake Pad Noise ?
- Thread starter McCard
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In my Ford Service manual, it says brake noise while reversing with cold brakes is normal. I believe them because the same thing happens to my car and it goes away after I pressed on the brakes pedal a few times.
I have never heard of the clips in the piston cups causing noise. 9 times out of 10 the noise is a direct metal to metal contact or a high frequency vibration because of the inability of the gas generated escaping (usually because of glazed pads) or cheap pads installed. Since you have Wagner pads I doubt it is the last reason.
Do you brake lightly and never really get on the brakes? If so I would try to burn the glaze off if present by holding the brake and gas pedal down at the same time to get the brakes hot. Do that a couple of times until your brakes quit squealing when you leave the driveway. If nothing fixes it, accept it as normal just as Ford says in their manuals.
I have never heard of the clips in the piston cups causing noise. 9 times out of 10 the noise is a direct metal to metal contact or a high frequency vibration because of the inability of the gas generated escaping (usually because of glazed pads) or cheap pads installed. Since you have Wagner pads I doubt it is the last reason.
Do you brake lightly and never really get on the brakes? If so I would try to burn the glaze off if present by holding the brake and gas pedal down at the same time to get the brakes hot. Do that a couple of times until your brakes quit squealing when you leave the driveway. If nothing fixes it, accept it as normal just as Ford says in their manuals.
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Try a couple hard stops to see if the noise goes away before you do anything drastic
Could be surface rust on the rotors building up overnight if it goes away after a few stops. Some rotors rust up quicker than others.
Describe the noise while braking in reverse. Is it kind of a howl, even at barely-moving speeds? That seems to be a symptom of pad glazing, at least in my experience. Our Acura does that when the pads begin to glaze. I just replaced the pads today with some good quality pads and there's no more howl in reverse.
I've used Wagner ceramic pads before, and to be completely honest, I wasn't all that impressed with them. They seemed to be rather mediocre, and I'm not sure why. They made some noise when installed in our '07 Town & Country van, more than the OEM brakes did. I never have used them again. I put Akebonos on the Acura today. Those seem well made. And no noise!
I've used Wagner ceramic pads before, and to be completely honest, I wasn't all that impressed with them. They seemed to be rather mediocre, and I'm not sure why. They made some noise when installed in our '07 Town & Country van, more than the OEM brakes did. I never have used them again. I put Akebonos on the Acura today. Those seem well made. And no noise!
Try backing into the garage, and see if the 'morning sickness' noise still occurs when pulling out forward.
A little noise with the first brake or two is kinda normal.
A little noise with the first brake or two is kinda normal.
The noise is a rather high pitched screaching sound first thing in the morning backing out of the driveway. The less pressure the less noise. The rotors do have a little surface rust build up at the edge of pad contact area. Maybe that's it. I'll scrape it away and see how it sounds.
The Wagner pads have a built-in insulator which is not a true shim. A long time ago, a competitor's brake engineer mentioned that this type of design is inferior because the piston will eventually "cut through" the built-in insulator, resulting in noise. The scenario described here seems to match that.
I would try a set of genuine Toyota pads with the factory shim kit. The factory shim kit is a separate part at an extra cost, but the factory shims are steel with a rubber backing on one side.
I would try a set of genuine Toyota pads with the factory shim kit. The factory shim kit is a separate part at an extra cost, but the factory shims are steel with a rubber backing on one side.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
A long time ago, a competitor's brake engineer mentioned that this type of design is inferior because the piston will eventually "cut through" the built-in insulator, resulting in noise.
This is exactly what happens. Awful design, I no longer install these brake pads where I work. They are "quiet" until the piston starts going through the insulator.
A long time ago, a competitor's brake engineer mentioned that this type of design is inferior because the piston will eventually "cut through" the built-in insulator, resulting in noise.
This is exactly what happens. Awful design, I no longer install these brake pads where I work. They are "quiet" until the piston starts going through the insulator.
Took the Vibe back in the garage. Knocked about a cup of rust off both Rotors and Sanded the edges of rust build-up. Son backed out this morning after a heavy rain last night. No Noise!! That's what I get for buying cheap chinese [censored] rotors!! I think they have been through two winters now, but only about 12000 miles at best. Still don't know if it is the rotors touching pads or calipers though. Never encountered this in my life. Usually I buy the cheapest pads (Silver) @ Advanced Auto. So I'll probably need pads to match rotors or better rotors to match pads.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
They made some noise when installed in our '07 Town & Country van, more than the OEM brakes did. I never have used them again. I put Akebonos on the Acura today. Those seem well made. And no noise!
The Wagner TQ pads for your Town & Country also use the integrated insulator, which as I mentioned previously, will eventually be damaged by the caliper piston - resulting in noise.
More info here: http://www.raysbestbrakes.com/Images/uploads/Truthflyer_Friction_vsWagner.pdf
I have noticed that Wagner has begun using a more-traditional "riveted" shim for many of the newer applications introduced, which I guess may solve the noise problems.
For instance, I recently installed a set of Wagner ThermoQuiets on a neighbor's 08 Elantra. The newest ThermoQuiets for this application have their "CeramicNXT" material and also use a normal shim. The car stops fantastic with no noise at all:
They made some noise when installed in our '07 Town & Country van, more than the OEM brakes did. I never have used them again. I put Akebonos on the Acura today. Those seem well made. And no noise!
The Wagner TQ pads for your Town & Country also use the integrated insulator, which as I mentioned previously, will eventually be damaged by the caliper piston - resulting in noise.
More info here: http://www.raysbestbrakes.com/Images/uploads/Truthflyer_Friction_vsWagner.pdf
I have noticed that Wagner has begun using a more-traditional "riveted" shim for many of the newer applications introduced, which I guess may solve the noise problems.
For instance, I recently installed a set of Wagner ThermoQuiets on a neighbor's 08 Elantra. The newest ThermoQuiets for this application have their "CeramicNXT" material and also use a normal shim. The car stops fantastic with no noise at all:
Originally Posted By: McCard
Took the Vibe back in the garage. Knocked about a cup of rust off both Rotors and Sanded the edges of rust build-up. Son backed out this morning after a heavy rain last night. No Noise!! That's what I get for buying cheap chinese [censored] rotors!! I think they have been through two winters now, but only about 12000 miles at best. Still don't know if it is the rotors touching pads or calipers though. Never encountered this in my life. Usually I buy the cheapest pads (Silver) @ Advanced Auto. So I'll probably need pads to match rotors or better rotors to match pads.
So 'good' rotors won't rust? They have surface rust in 1/2 hour after being cut/ machined and returned to the shop, on a humid or rainy day.
Took the Vibe back in the garage. Knocked about a cup of rust off both Rotors and Sanded the edges of rust build-up. Son backed out this morning after a heavy rain last night. No Noise!! That's what I get for buying cheap chinese [censored] rotors!! I think they have been through two winters now, but only about 12000 miles at best. Still don't know if it is the rotors touching pads or calipers though. Never encountered this in my life. Usually I buy the cheapest pads (Silver) @ Advanced Auto. So I'll probably need pads to match rotors or better rotors to match pads.
So 'good' rotors won't rust? They have surface rust in 1/2 hour after being cut/ machined and returned to the shop, on a humid or rainy day.
I have had several cars with rust build up on the vented edge of the disc with no noise. Including my V50.
I bought some Pagid discs and pads for the Mondeo a couple of years ago and they had some kind of silvery coating on them to prevent rust, instead of the oily stuff you usually get.
They needed no cleaning before fitting and this coating assisted break in aswell apparently.
They were certainly very good from day one and when I sold the car on 20k later there was no sign of rust round the vents.
Very impressed with that.
My V50's front discs are very rusty by still have lots of miles in them.
The rears were almost new on purchase so must have 30/35k on them now.
There must be at least twice that on the fronts if not more!
Hoping to have money to get some Pagid discs £37:14 each in current Euro sale and Pagid pads £25:80 in sale, bought and fitted before middle of January.
Still a good 3mm on the pads and discs could continue in service as the car brakes straight and true.
I bought some Pagid discs and pads for the Mondeo a couple of years ago and they had some kind of silvery coating on them to prevent rust, instead of the oily stuff you usually get.
They needed no cleaning before fitting and this coating assisted break in aswell apparently.
They were certainly very good from day one and when I sold the car on 20k later there was no sign of rust round the vents.
Very impressed with that.
My V50's front discs are very rusty by still have lots of miles in them.
The rears were almost new on purchase so must have 30/35k on them now.
There must be at least twice that on the fronts if not more!
Hoping to have money to get some Pagid discs £37:14 each in current Euro sale and Pagid pads £25:80 in sale, bought and fitted before middle of January.
Still a good 3mm on the pads and discs could continue in service as the car brakes straight and true.
We had previously used Thermoquiets on one of our cars and the pads eventually squeaked everytime the brakes were applied. I would go with Akebono if you're looking for a low dust, name brand ceramic.
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