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neutra's lubrication ability #265147
04/30/03 05:12 AM
04/30/03 05:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
boxcartommie22 Offline OP
boxcartommie22  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
could someone explain to me how neutra can lube the upper cylinder areas when one only puts in the recommended amts. in gas tanks of 20 and 30 gal.of gas....is this an effective ucl? that goes for senergyn's preventalube which almost the same as neutra

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265148
04/30/03 06:28 PM
04/30/03 06:28 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
MoleKule has mentioned that Neutra doesn't have the necessary chemicals to be an effective UCL compared to some other products out there, but that it's an excellent product for keeping things clean. And you don't really need a UCL all that badly unless you're running an older engine without hardened valve seats, or towing very heavy loads.

One of the reasons I really like using Neutra in my fuel system is that I know it's totally safe if some of it gets into the oil. With a lot of products that you add to your fuel, you may not know for sure if it is safe to go in the crankcase or not. And we can see in a few UOAs, especially in cold weather, that a small percentage of fuel does get into your oil, so that means so does whatever chemicals you put into your fuel also.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265149
05/01/03 01:22 AM
05/01/03 01:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
boxcartommie22 Offline OP
boxcartommie22  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,073
moutain country
thak you patman, what product is the best for ucl? lucas? it's like heavy with oil

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265150
05/01/03 01:42 AM
05/01/03 01:42 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline
BOBISTHEOILGUY  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
I'm sorry but I disagreee with patmans comments about the 131 not being an UCL.

The actual design of the bottled 131 is 12oz to 15-20gals of fuel. This is the noraml treat rate.

Neutra Fuel Stabilizer contains a highly concentrated additive package. When used at the recommended treatment levels, this additive package allows Neutra Fuel Stabilizer to provide the following perfomance benefits:

  • Improves combustion by vaporizing the fuel into small particles, thus allowing for more power per gallon of fuel and better fuel economy.
  • Extends engine life by lubricating the upper cylinders.
  • Neutralizes the acids that are formed during combustion, thus giving full protection against corrosive wear to the cylinder liners, piston rings, exhaust valve guides and other engine parts.
  • Detergency to provide cleanliness to fuel pumps, injectors and carburetors.
  • Dispersion of insoluble gums often present in low quality fuels.
  • Allows moisture to rapidly settle from the fuel so that it can be removed from the fuel during storage.
  • Rust and corrosion protection.
  • Excellent anti-wear protection of the injectors and fuel pumps especially from those engines burning low sulfur diesel fuels, reformulated gasoline or oxygenated gasoline.
  • Lowers the freeze point of any water that may be present in the fuel.
  • Dispersion of water present in the fuel to prevent fuel icing and other problems associated with water.
  • Excellent storage stabilizer.
  • Coats internal parts of the fuel system to allow better fuel flow and less internal friction.
  • Inhibition of oxidation of the fuel during storage
  • Reduced emission and exhaust smoke.
  • Lead replacement for reduced exhaust valve seat wear (recession) for both non-hardened and hardened exhaust valve seat and seat inserts.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265151
05/01/03 03:21 AM
05/01/03 03:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,467
Colorado
Mystic Offline
Mystic  Offline
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,467
Colorado
BOBISTHEOILGUY, once injectors are clean, how much Neutra do you need to keep an engine clean? I have heard people at this web site say that an 1 0z. or 2 oz. of Neutra in a tank of gas is good.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265152
05/01/03 03:51 AM
05/01/03 03:51 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
I'm sorry but I disagreee with patmans comments about the 131 not being an UCL.


I was only repeating what MoleKule told me, maybe he'll chime in with his explanation.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265153
05/01/03 04:43 PM
05/01/03 04:43 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline
BOBISTHEOILGUY  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
No problem patman. I know and Mola and I will continue to disagree with this and I will eventually address this issue in such a way to prove this point. In the mean time, I still have the filter study to continue with.

As for recommended amounts, Myself, On occasion I'll put a full bottle in the tank to give it the full benefit of what it is designed for. While not doing a full bottle, I normally will divide the bottle (12oz) up into 4 equal parts for my 10gal tank, so that would work out to about 3oz. Now, does this work? well, I'd say it is at least a feel good thing, but I'd say IMO, that a full bottle every time isn't needed.

I'd also like to point out something many fail to recognize. In the case of Neutra, this additive will not separate from the fuel. It will blend in and stay that way. Fuel companies actually buy and blend their fuel with some of our additive products at the fuel depot. Other jobbers buy our fuel treatment and blend it in their main tanks before selling to their customers. It is not uncommon for a jobber to take a #2 diesel fuel, add our additive in, (which at the treat-rate and cost adds a 2cent cost to the base fuel price), and hike up the fuel above #2's price but well lower than #1's cost. So customers are actually getting the benefits of #1 for a fraction of the cost of what #1 actually costs.

Point I'm making here is that when it comes to fuel treatments, Schaeffers fuel additives are actually used as part of the blenders fuel additive package in the case of certain fuel companies. All fuels come with some additives already designed into the fuel and Schaeffers just happens to be one of the providers for such.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265154
05/01/03 10:08 PM
05/01/03 10:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,484
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,484
Iowegia - USA
Neutra is an excellent upper cylinder and combustion chamber cleaner as well as a fuel system cleaner.

However, unless Schaeffer's has recently added a manganese or comparable component to
Neutra, I do not see, chemically and physically, how it can be classified as an upper cylinder lubricant.

While engine oil will lubricate valve stems and seals, it takes a metallic deposition component that leaves a meatallic film to coat the valve seats and valve faces in order to be truly classified as an upper cylinder lubricant. I see no indication that Neutra has this component.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265155
05/01/03 10:15 PM
05/01/03 10:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,387
Washington St.
Ken2 Offline
Ken2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,387
Washington St.
Hi Bob,

Just a note to clarify, #1 diesel fuel is not a superior product to #2-D. #1-D is a lower viscosity, lower flash point, has a lower floc point (where the cold causes the wax to crystalize), and also lower BTU content. It's widely used to blend with #2-D for winter use in cold climates.

Premium #2-D is the superior product: "The premium diesel concept is not the same as that of the premium gasoline. Gasoline engines of certain types and compression ratios require a higher octane fuel to avoid knocking. Therefore, premium gasoline is required for these vehicles and is provided by all fuel suppliers. Premium diesel, on the other hand, is related to varying one or more fuel properties. Some of the more-talked-about fuel properties are: cetane number, low temperature operability, stability, lubricity, detergency, and heating value. The suppliers of premium diesel fuel evaluate their marketing area and provide a fuel that has one or more of these improved properties. The level of improvement in each property varies from one supplier to another." (From a Chevron pub.)

There is no widespread agreement on what should consitute a standard for premium #2-D. Consideration is any two of the following-->138,700 btu/gal, >47 cetane, specified low temperature operability, specified 150C thermal stability, specified fuel injector cleanliness.


Ken

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265156
05/06/03 03:55 AM
05/06/03 03:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 491
Ottawa
Rick Offline
Rick  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 491
Ottawa
So would it be good enought and effective to use 1 bottle of Neutra every 10,000k when I change my oil. Or is it better to use it more often?

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265157
05/06/03 03:56 AM
05/06/03 03:56 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by Rick:
So would it be good enought and effective to use 1 bottle of Neutra every 10,000k when I change my oil. Or is it better to use it more often?

I say it's better to use it more often, but in smaller doses. I currently use about one ounce for every 5 gallons of fuel (approxmiately 20 liters)

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265158
05/06/03 04:02 AM
05/06/03 04:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 491
Ottawa
Rick Offline
Rick  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 491
Ottawa
Hey Patman I got my case yesterday. But It's a bit hard to measure what the dose is. So what if I used half a bottle every 5k?

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265159
05/06/03 08:49 AM
05/06/03 08:49 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
BOBISTHEOILGUY Offline
BOBISTHEOILGUY  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,874
Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Ken2:
Hi Bob,

Just a note to clarify, #1 diesel fuel is not a superior product to #2-D. #1-D is a lower viscosity, lower flash point, has a lower floc point (where the cold causes the wax to crystalize), and also lower BTU content. It's widely used to blend with #2-D for winter use in cold climates.

Premium #2-D is the superior product: "The premium diesel concept is not the same as that of the premium gasoline. Gasoline engines of certain types and compression ratios require a higher octane fuel to avoid knocking. Therefore, premium gasoline is required for these vehicles and is provided by all fuel suppliers. Premium diesel, on the other hand, is related to varying one or more fuel properties. Some of the more-talked-about fuel properties are: cetane number, low temperature operability, stability, lubricity, detergency, and heating value. The suppliers of premium diesel fuel evaluate their marketing area and provide a fuel that has one or more of these improved properties. The level of improvement in each property varies from one supplier to another." (From a Chevron pub.)

There is no widespread agreement on what should consitute a standard for premium #2-D. Consideration is any two of the following-->138,700 btu/gal, >47 cetane, specified low temperature operability, specified 150C thermal stability, specified fuel injector cleanliness.


Ken

Actually Ken, I had not intended to get into this as of yet, but I do agree with you to some extent. First let's explain something so others can relate what we are talking about.

Fuels with naturally high cetane pack less energy per gal. Cetane is a measure of how quickly fuel ignites. Fuels with more cetane burn faster and starts engines easier. Once you have enough for reliable starts you don't want more.

Most engine manufactures recommends and API gravity of no more than 35 for common fuel. API gravity is a measure of the fuels density(or weight per gal). The higher it goes the less the weight per gal and the less energy it contains. As a general rule, energy content of fuel decreases 3-5% for every 10 degree increase in API gravity. Lower energy content will result in roughly the same percentage decrease in engine power and raise fuel consumption.
 -

Now, my statement in the previous post was not to make a #2 it into a number 1 fuel but actually get the benefits of number 1 while staying in a #2 grade API. So whats the benefits of number 1 D fuel?, easier starts due to easier ignition, less smoke, cleaner injectors. The basic idea of a #1 prem Diesel fuel was set by
if memory serves 2 out of 5 of these parameters are to be considered a prem fuel. So what 2 do you have when you fuel up? As pointed out, there's no consistency thus, the fuel additive.

Here is a list and this doesn't include lubricity as one of them as they didn't have a current test to test the lubricity enhanced fuels. So that isn't included as one of the items they look at in a prem fuel, So when getting a prem #1, you have less lubricity as a norm, so now you're paying more for less.

 -

Now, given that, lubricity is a major factor in diesel fuels. unfortunately as noted above this isn't a requirement when you get to the pump to be demonstrated. This is where a #2 diesel fuel excels as it has higher levels of sulfur which provides better lubricity. The problem here is that Gore was able to have the sulfur content of the fuel reduced for on road use(due to heavy black smoke among reasons given) so when this took place many engines developed seal problems in their pumps. This natural lubricity was being reduced so to reduce emissions. As you know, off road fuel,(with dye) has higher amounts of sulfur. Sulfur is actually a double edge sword, as it helps lubricity, it also leaves a residue, called carbon. As sulfur is burned it becomes a sulfuric acid byproduct and starts leaving deposits and this creates hot spots in the cyl as well it clog's injectors and created uneven burn which also causes reduced fuel economy. A higher api gravity fuel such as #1 has a much lower amount of sulfur and doesn't cause that as much. Well, that's one of the neat benefits of the fuel additive, it neutralizes the sulfur but adds the lubricity back in. All this without increasing the api gravity. Also the additive will increase the cetane with out increasing the api gravity thus, it will burn or ignite easier, but yet have the btu's or energy of the #2 fuel. So, in effect, your getting some of the benefits of the #1 but with the #2, kind of like taking the best of both and blending them together into one.

Thought you might like to see why lubricity is so important in a fuel injection system. Notice all the mechanical moving parts in an injector. This is the same for gas and diesel engines as they all have springs, check balls, pistons, valves, so imagine running that with a low lubricity package in the fuel system. My question to you is this as many are asking how often should I run a fuel treatment, How often do you know that the fuel you're using has a lubricity package that will keep the injectors not only clean but lubricated as well as reduce any water ingestion so that these parts don't get corroded? That imo, is why I run a fuel additive in every tank full. There's no consistent requirement for fuel jobbers to supply you with any of this info.
 -

Ken, I hope that clarifies what I was saying earlier.

bob

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265160
05/06/03 04:30 PM
05/06/03 04:30 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,182
Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by Rick:
Hey Patman I got my case yesterday. But It's a bit hard to measure what the dose is. So what if I used half a bottle every 5k?

Go to your local Walmart and look in the auto section for a syringe like device called the Mixmizer. It holds 2oz of liquid, so I use this to suck out of the Neutra bottle for my doses.

Re: neutra's lubrication ability #265161
05/06/03 05:38 PM
05/06/03 05:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,762
Houston, Tex
TooManyWheels Offline
TooManyWheels  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,762
Houston, Tex
Another measuring solution would be to go to the lawnmower section of a Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot and take a look at the bottles the two cyle oil comes in. Many of them are graduated.

My only concern is whether these bottles can be dissolved by the solvents we are measuring - my favorite measuring bottle has the #2 recycling symbol, the Auto-RX bottle is also #2, but Neutra comes in a #3.

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