Clarification on Rotella JASO-MA "Certification"

[dirtydannyd]

I just want to clarify something with all this stuff about Rotella T6 being JASO-MA "certified".

It's my understanding that it isn't JASO-MA certified. A JASO-MA "certified" oil has undergone the testing to be allowed to display the certificate on the bottle like what Motul has.

This is the JASO-MA certificate and I believe it's present on some 'motorcycle oils' such as Motul et al.:

Rotella T6 does not have this. They have the API certificate (round stamp on the right) but that's it as far as "certifications" go.

So I guess you could say that people wouldn't use it becuase it is not JASO-MA certified.
Fair enough, the manufacturer "claims" it meet JASO-MA, however this has not been certified. At the end of the day, the manufacturer can "claim" anything they want, right?

At the end of the day, it is a good oil and does seem suitable for motorcycles as plenty of oil analysis' have shown. All I'm trying to do here is to cut through the hype and get to the facts regarding oils that "meet a particular standard" as opposed to oils that "are certified and have undergone certification".

I'm not trying to dump on this product. It's a great product. But you don't just say "it's certified" becuase it isn't. Just like a guy in a white coat in a hospital isn't a "certified" doctor without the proper certificate even though he might have the knowledge to provide you with medical care.

Oh, and FYI I'm not drumming up business for motorcycle oils. Personally, I use Delo 400 15W/40 Multigrade in my 1050 Speed Triple and in my TTR250 dirtbike

 

[yaris0128]

You make a very valid point on Rotella sir. Makes me wonder if that JASO-MA rating is the real deal or not.... I only want it in my Ninja if its legit good for my little baby.

 

[CarbonSteel]

On the PDS for T6, both JASO MA and DH2 are listed in the specifications and approvals list. Are these weasel words or valid specifications and approvals?

 

[BigCahuna]

You guys do realise that there are alot of motorcycle oils that do not even have the API symbol on the bottle, and sell for premium prices. Big name brands whose bottles say it meets or exceeds API standards. They have been that way for years and apparently it doesn't bother too many people, or bikes for that matter.,,

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
On the PDS for T6, both JASO MA and DH2 are listed in the specifications and approvals list. Are these weasel words or valid specifications and approvals?

I want to know this for myself as I have a vested interest because I am using T6 in a BF750 with a 5 year warranty and do not wish to have any arguments with Kawasaki in the event of a warranty claim. To that end, I sent an e-mail to Shell with the subject line of Rotella Triple T, Rotella T6, and JASO MA/DH2 and asked:

Are these two oils actually CERTIFIED for JASO MA/DH2 or just “approved or meets specifications”? I would prefer a valid and direct answer without weak words that fail to give the answer—please no “sales speak”.

Thanks in advance for your sincerity!

I will post the response here if I receive one.

 

[dirtydannyd]

Well have a look at this Motul bottle:

http://www.bcmtouring.com/forum/attachments/photo0654.jpg-153796d1302005098

See how it has the JASO MA2 certification? Well, have a look at the following list from the JASO engineering website:

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

You can see that this particular oil is on the "certified" list.

Having said that, the Motul "claims" to meet the API 15W/50 standard. Unlike the Rotella which has the API certification (round logo), the Motul does not have the API certification.

FYI, Shell advance motorcycle oil does not have the JASO-MA certification either and does not appear on the list. It's probably because it costs $$$ to get the certification. They know what the specs should be to meet the JASO standard so they meet it, and if they would fork out the $$$ they would be able to display the certification on their bottle (like what Motul have done).

Not to stress though. All I'm saying is that it's wrong to say that something "is certified" for whatever when in fact it isn't.

I can get a heap of business cards saying I'm a lawyer but until I've passed the bar exam, I'm not "certified". Right?

Still a good oil and if I could get it easily then I would use it too.

 

[Mike Simmons]

Here is my take, FWIW. Rotella was designed and is marketed by Shell as primarily a HD truck engine oil. There is a substantial fee that must be paid to JASO for the testing and certification for the MA spec. Shell has determined that it probably not worth the time and money to submit this oil to JASO for certification, however, Shell has examined the JASO MA spec and found that Rotella meets their requirements. Another good example of this is Amsoil. For many years, Amsoil was not API certified because Amsoil did not want to incur the expense of obtaining certification, but they marketed their oil as "meeting" API specs.

Mike

 

[AuthorEditor]

I hope Calsci doesn't mind that I copied the following paragraph CALSCI from the web site:

Quote:
JASO certified Oil

Another institute that certifies oils is called the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization, JASO. One wonders why this Japanese organization has an English name. . . In any case, they have two classifications for motorcycles, "MA" and "MB." MA is the one you want. MB is like the API SL category, it's got all those nasty friction reducing chemicals that may scare your clutch into misbehaving. Again, there is an official JASO seal if the oil has been independently tested. The seal is a rectangle; in the upper quarter of the rectangle will be a serial number, and the lower three quarters will just have the letters MA. If the oil manufacturer did their own testing, instead you'll see just words like "Meets or exceeds JASO MA standards."

Some manufacturers recommend JASO-MA certified oil. AMSOil and Golden Spectro are JASO-MA certified. Some people consider this important. Interestingly, although Honda recommends a JASO-MA oil, Honda oil is not JASO-MA certified. Mostly JASO-MA is pretty much equivalent to SH. In fact, the JASO spec is mostly a reaction to the decrease in zinc-phosphates in SJ and SL oils, and the added molybdenum disulfide in energy conserving oils. Personally, I don't care about JASO standards - they're really not on my radar.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Received this from Shell:

Rotella T6 5w-40 and Rotella T Triple Protection 15w-40 meet the performance requirements of JASO MA and JASO DH2. This means we have tested these products and warranty them for use in these applications.

Shell Technical

Too "weasley" for me so I sent this (am waiting for a response):

Are they JASO certified -- yes or no?

Based upon the initial response, I would say that you are totally correct--Rotella is NOT JASO certified--it only meets the performance requirements and Shell will warranty that it does.

PS...If could I get my hands on some of the Gulf Pride 4T 20W-50 I would run that instead (I do not think it is sold in the US). Hmmm...perhaps I need to contact one of the guys in one of our overseas offices

 

[Sonataman]

Doesn't matter if it does or not, Rotella, Delvac and Delo are used everywhere in motorcycles without issue as are many other NON-JASO oils.

If JASO actually meant the oil could be safely run the entire OCI while holding Vis, THEN I might try to find some that's certified.

 

[kmrcstintn]

I frequent a local shop that has been and continues to use Castrol GTX in 10w-40 and 20w-50 (including new SN stuff) for oil changes in moto's for owners who want dino oil and to keep costs down; I trust these guys and they haven't lied to me since I started using them...no clutch slippage or excessive burn off & recommend OCI's of 2000 miles; they also offer Maxima and Amsoil products, so everyone gets a good range of products to choose from;

to the guy NOT wanting to use a non-JASO certified product...shop around and get stuff on sale (eg: AutoZone puts Valvoline MC oil on sale once or twice a year...last month it was $2.99/qt for conventional in 10w-40 and 20w-50)

 

[AuthorEditor]

Just for kicks, take a look at your manufacturer's boutique oil sold at a substantial markup and see if it carries the JASO certification. I'm talking about the exact oil the manufacturer recommends in their manual. I bet you will be surprised that many of those oils are not.

 

[Mackelroy]

The only reason to even worry about MA rating, is the clutch grip. I can tell ya Rotella has stronger clutch grip than Mobil 1 MC products. Not by a Huge amount, but the difference does exist.

I have ran Rotella in a few differnt bikes, I dont like it im my vfr cause the clutch grip is too strong and makes the shifting notchy, especially the 15w40 rotella.

 

[sirgerman]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
The only reason to even worry about MA rating, is the clutch grip. I can tell ya Rotella has stronger clutch grip than Mobil 1 MC products. Not by a Huge amount, but the difference does exist.

I have ran Rotella in a few differnt bikes, I dont like it im my vfr cause the clutch grip is too strong and makes the shifting notchy, especially the 15w40 rotella.


I am using delvac 15/40 wich is not jaso certificated and I can not tell the difference with rotella 15/40 , so in conclusion any HDEO will do fine in any wet clutch bike

 

[kmrcstintn]

Quote:
I am using delvac 15/40 wich is not jaso certificated and I can not tell the difference with rotella 15/40 , so in conclusion any HDEO will do fine in any wet clutch bike


does anyone know if Royal Purple 15w-40 synthetic is moly heavy? I saw gallon bottles of it @ Pep Boys and I am curious about it, but wary since moly is creeping into formulas to replace alot of ZDDP that is being reduced...thanks

 

[va3ux]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Received this from Shell:

Rotella T6 5w-40 and Rotella T Triple Protection 15w-40 meet the performance requirements of JASO MA and JASO DH2. This means we have tested these products and warranty them for use in these applications.

Shell Technical

Too "weasley" for me so I sent this (am waiting for a response):


I don't think it's weasley at all. It's quite clear from the response that it meets the performance requirements but they haven't bothered having it certified. Big deal. There's no trick here. This is Shell - not some home-based oil blender working out of their garage.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: va3ux
I don't think it's weasley at all.

I think is "weasley" because I asked a very direct question and they did not answer it directly. They could have simply said--No, it is not JASO certified and removed all of the ambiguity. It matters not, Rotella performs very well in my ATV and is at such a price point that it is not worth seeking something more expensive. If anything based upon my OCIs, I should go for something even cheaper and will likely try some Mobil Super 10W-40 in it and see how that holds up.

 

[kballowe]

Take a look at the back of the bottle of Amsoil MCF or MCV motorcycle-specific oils.

Now, go look at the Mobil 1 4T-Racing 10W-40 and the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50. (Both specifically formulated for motorcycles and wet clutches).

What do these oils have in common?

They all say "JASO-MA" but they do not present the JASO Certification symbol.

Just two examples - and there are many more. Like some other wise man posted - many motorcycle-specific oils do not have an actual JASO certification. They have done their own in-house testing...

Here's the current JASO certification list, as of June 2012. Read carefully.... many of those oils look similar but are not available in the USA.
.
.
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf


We use a lot of Rotella or Delvac. Whichever is on sale. Works for me.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dirtydannyd
FYI, Shell advance motorcycle oil does not have the JASO-MA certification either and does not appear on the list. It's probably because it costs $$$ to get the certification. They know what the specs should be to meet the JASO standard so they meet it, and if they would fork out the $$$ they would be able to display the certification on their bottle (like what Motul have done).

Just to clarify, it is up to each oil manufacturer to perform the necessary tests to show compliance with a JASO spec. The results of these tests are then submitted to a JASO panel/management for review and approval of the application. The JASO panel does not perform any additional tests. They either approve or reject the application. It sounds like Shell has done the first part but has not done the second part, which is a bit strange because according to JASO documentation, the management fee is only about $500 (40,000 Yen). This seems like a small price to pay to be able to carry the official JASO logo. Makes you wonder why Shell would not pay the fee. But maybe they treat their Rotella line as HDEO mainly and the JASO spec is just an added bonus and not its main purpose.

 

[kmrcstintn]

Quote:
But maybe they treat their Rotella line as HDEO mainly and the JASO spec is just an added bonus and not its main purpose.


you hit the nail on the head...

Shell knows there will be a niche market among bike riders who use their product and these folks tell other bikers about using Rotella...it might simply be a marketing tool to stick out from other HDEO oils to than niche market