Patman
Staff member
What benefits do these provide?
Upper cylinder lubricants
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I was using the Lucas brand. Their claim is it replaces the polymers that are removed in the oxygenation process that fuels now require. I quit using it. I did not notice a difference with or without it.
MolaKule
Staff member
Just about any octane booster fuel additive contains an additive and a light oil that lubricates the upper cylinder.
That's why I use an octane booster with FP or Neutra.
The MMT in octane boosters also acts as a valve seat lubricant.
That's why I use an octane booster with FP or Neutra.
The MMT in octane boosters also acts as a valve seat lubricant.
i use preventalube by synergyn and also redlines complete fuel treatment
Lubing the upper cylinders:
1) Reduces cylinder/ring wear.
2) Lubricates valve seats - reduces valve recession.
3) Reduces oil consumption (but why?)
4) Reduces wear in general to the upper valve train (stem, anything exposed to fuel)
5) Reduces friction in the motor ... increases fuel economy by a minute amount.
I have used Marvel Mystery Oil in the past with good results but I am leary of using any top oil regularly in a fuel injected car for fear of clogging the injectors.
Currently, I have a great deal of 2-cycle oil on hand and use a few ounces every 2nd or 3rd tankful in my Civic. No ill effects to date and I'm getting rid of old-spec (but perfectly good) 2-stroke oil and hopefully protecting my head from further valve recession.
--- Bror Jace
1) Reduces cylinder/ring wear.
2) Lubricates valve seats - reduces valve recession.
3) Reduces oil consumption (but why?)
4) Reduces wear in general to the upper valve train (stem, anything exposed to fuel)
5) Reduces friction in the motor ... increases fuel economy by a minute amount.
I have used Marvel Mystery Oil in the past with good results but I am leary of using any top oil regularly in a fuel injected car for fear of clogging the injectors.
Currently, I have a great deal of 2-cycle oil on hand and use a few ounces every 2nd or 3rd tankful in my Civic. No ill effects to date and I'm getting rid of old-spec (but perfectly good) 2-stroke oil and hopefully protecting my head from further valve recession.
--- Bror Jace
Patman
Staff member
This is basically what I'm getting at. Most people probably don't see any tangible benefits from it. Lots of people get 300k out of their engine without doing anything special at all. I bet less than 0.1% of the driving public ever regularily adds any sort of fuel additive to their tanks like this.
It's not like adding this sort of stuff instantly boosts your MPG by 10%.
A UCL is a must with unleaded fuel. I use Lucas UCL as it's readily available here and unusually cheap for an imported U.S product. I mix it with FPC and add to each tank. Cleans injectors too. I'm open to suggestions though on other products?
Does Amsoil PI act as an ok UCL? I use it in the wife's Volvo 850 for the cleaning effects (seems to do OK if used more or less regularly) but I don't use it my other cars....I mainly pitch it for cleaning, though.
It sorta has an oily feel to it and in the propaganda it says "its lubricity reduces fricton and wear in the combustion chamber". Whadda ya think?
It sorta has an oily feel to it and in the propaganda it says "its lubricity reduces fricton and wear in the combustion chamber". Whadda ya think?
I too have used Marvel Mystery Oil - Canadian Tire carried it last year (not available anymore, though). I added it to my Mazda Protege late last spring and the engine became immediately quieter. The 1.8 litre Protege engine is rated at about 7.3 litres/100kms, and up to that time the best I'd gotten was 7.1 or about 700kms/tankfull. The first tank with the Marvel gave me 6.6 litres/100kms and 750kms/tank, the second was 6.8 litres/100kms, and again 750kms/tank. I used it for most of the summer and the mileage persisted.
So I'm a believer in top end lubrication.
So I'm a believer in top end lubrication.
I use the Lucas in the 4Runner, and it has given me 0.2km/l, tank after tank after tank. (I keep a log book of every fill).
Regular Unleaded 7.0 km/l
Regular with Lucas 7.2 km/l
Premium Unleaded (new gen stuff) 7.8km/l
Premiun with Lucas 8.0 km/l
Went to a dodgy service station that was reportedly doctoring fuel with toluene (no road excise on bulk paint thinners back then)- got 8.8km/l, and the variance didn't show up in the tank before or the couple tanks after.
Regular Unleaded 7.0 km/l
Regular with Lucas 7.2 km/l
Premium Unleaded (new gen stuff) 7.8km/l
Premiun with Lucas 8.0 km/l
Patman
Staff member
Is Amsoil PI effective at removing carbon from the combustion chamber too? What about Neutra?
Actually, I don't agree with that Mola. Try this little test, use a test tube, put 1/4 diesel fuel, and 1/4 fuel additive.. use a rubber stopper, and shake up and down. What I have seen is that lucas and the 131 fuel additive by schaeffers will lubricate that stopper so much that it will not stay in the tube, and everytimg you push down on the stopper it pop's back up. Another way to see this, lay the tube down and roll around amd you can seel the oil on the tube. Even though the diesel fuel is an oil in itself, it will not leave the oil residue nor affect the stopper as the fuel additive does.
I'm sure that most fuel addtives have maybe some small amount of carrier oil, but nothing like the 131 or lucas from what I've seen.
As for what it does for ones engine, it helps keep valve reccession from happening, helps give the top side of the pistion some lubrication on the top side of the rings thus giving less wear on the top. Think of it kind of like you put oil in the bottom half of the engine but the top side only rely's on what's in the gas which in very little lubrication. This is why so many have excessive carbon build up, which causes pre ignition knock or pinging, clogged injectors, bad seals in the injectors which then causes leaky injectors.
No, you may never "see" a difference, but there is many things that a good fuel additive helps "prevent". A lot of this all depends on what type and brand of fuel you run and so forth.
[ February 18, 2003, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Bob - I guess that raises an interesting question or two.
How much UC lube does a car need? (varies by engine design I'm sure)
Is too much lube a bad thing? (I would think - emissions, deposits, etc..)
So not to say the test tube test is a bad thing....but it's not an engine. IOW, I could put some lube in there that would slip the stopper right out, but not be so good in the engine. (and I'm not saying the products you tested and passed do any harm!!)
edit PS Bob - your edit helped answer some questions.
[ February 18, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
How much UC lube does a car need? (varies by engine design I'm sure)
Is too much lube a bad thing? (I would think - emissions, deposits, etc..)
So not to say the test tube test is a bad thing....but it's not an engine. IOW, I could put some lube in there that would slip the stopper right out, but not be so good in the engine. (and I'm not saying the products you tested and passed do any harm!!)
edit PS Bob - your edit helped answer some questions.
[ February 18, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
I have posted before that modern engines do not suffer from valve reccession . The quality of the components does not allow for this these days .The seat inserts might sink into the aluminum head,the valve stems might stretch a bit.Thats a good reason right there to check your valve lash according to your owners manual if your motor requires this or rather uses that design. I do believe the use of a UCL in moderate doses per tank is usefull,the Lucas being the best burning I have found and personally experimented with but not at the treat rate they recommend in the car I was testing it in.
A UCL should reduce the Fe wear from the cylinders and the valve guides/valve stems should last longer.
More UCL in summer,less in winter for better combustion unless you hit the sweetspot with the heat range of the sparkplug/airfilter since the A/F ratio cannot be adjusted on most of these FI motors
Pablo,take spark plug readings to see where your at on treatrate. It can become accumalative so after a few tanks one tank without is advisable. In colder climates a step hotter spark plug CAN be in order as well unless the car is on the hiway all the time.
A UCL should reduce the Fe wear from the cylinders and the valve guides/valve stems should last longer.
More UCL in summer,less in winter for better combustion unless you hit the sweetspot with the heat range of the sparkplug/airfilter since the A/F ratio cannot be adjusted on most of these FI motors
Pablo,take spark plug readings to see where your at on treatrate. It can become accumalative so after a few tanks one tank without is advisable. In colder climates a step hotter spark plug CAN be in order as well unless the car is on the hiway all the time.
Lucas and the neutra 131 are both good from the tests I have done with them. Both unlike most neutralizes the acid byproduct of the sulfur used in fuel, therefore reduces the carbon byproduct keeping the cyl cleaner. This also is where MM cannot or does not compare with lucas or 131.
I respectfully disagree that one is better than the other between those two for fuel applications. The real difference I see is price and diversitility of use. Lucas being available OTC where as 131 is from Tim @ around 3.00 a bottle of almost half with wholesale orders.
I respectfully disagree that one is better than the other between those two for fuel applications. The real difference I see is price and diversitility of use. Lucas being available OTC where as 131 is from Tim @ around 3.00 a bottle of almost half with wholesale orders.
For upper cyl lube, I'm concerned about the effect on the fuel injectors, O2 sensors, & catalytic converters of modern cars. Neutra has proven to me that not only does it do no harm, it actually helps by cleaning the FI & O2 sensors, while providing some lubrication to the top cyl as well. I've never tried the Lucas, have no opinions on it. Fuel Power additive seems provide similar benefits(though with entirely different chemistry) to Neutra, & it may also boost effective octane just a bit. The effect is noticeable at higher rpm in my car even when running Chevron 93 octane- no foolin. I'm experimenting with FP now, have just cut back to regular after running Super Unl. for over a year now.
Using MMO, ATF, 2-cycle oil, & similar stuff for top cyl. lube in a modern FI, O2-sensor, catalytic converter equipped car strikes me as asking for trouble. If you have a carburetor, no O2 sensors or cat? Sure, use it! But I'd be afraid it would foul/upset the O2 sensor, &/or clog the cat. If I wasn't so chicken, I might use up a pint or so of old 2-cycle oil myself that way! If it works for you, that's great & I wish you well. Me? I'll stick with Neutra or Fuel Power for my gas additives.
But hmm...Neutra & a little 2-cycle oil for the lawn tractor gas? Hmm...
Using MMO, ATF, 2-cycle oil, & similar stuff for top cyl. lube in a modern FI, O2-sensor, catalytic converter equipped car strikes me as asking for trouble. If you have a carburetor, no O2 sensors or cat? Sure, use it! But I'd be afraid it would foul/upset the O2 sensor, &/or clog the cat. If I wasn't so chicken, I might use up a pint or so of old 2-cycle oil myself that way! If it works for you, that's great & I wish you well. Me? I'll stick with Neutra or Fuel Power for my gas additives.
But hmm...Neutra & a little 2-cycle oil for the lawn tractor gas? Hmm...
MolaKule
Staff member
Bob,
Neutra is an ester-type cleaner, while MMT is a metallic-based chemical that leaves a lubricating film on the valve seats, much as the traethyl lead additive did for the gasoline engines of the muscle car era. Lab and engine tests confirm this.
You really don't need much, one ounce to one gallon of Neutra or Fuel Power.
Neutra is an ester-type cleaner, while MMT is a metallic-based chemical that leaves a lubricating film on the valve seats, much as the traethyl lead additive did for the gasoline engines of the muscle car era. Lab and engine tests confirm this.
You really don't need much, one ounce to one gallon of Neutra or Fuel Power.
No problems with MMO in my FI/Cat equipped OBD1 and OBD2 vehicles.
My dad's 200k mile POS just passed RI's chassis dyno emissions test.
My beater, which has only 180k miles, also had no problem passing.
My summer car, oil injection bypassed, runs 128:1 2 stroke with the gas and has no problems passing the emissions test. But, it only has 100k miles.
My 02 sensors get replaced every 100k miles regardless. The catalytics, in a well running engine, will not have any problems. We are still running all original cats. Makes me wonder why so many have problems passing!
Here's the question for everybody:
Once the additives that are mixed with fuel get vaporized by the FI, does it most likely combust and do nothing? Or, does the additive separate from the fuel and do it thing?
I treat the MMO as an FI cleaner. Never considered it as a UCL. Don't see how any other UCL actual can work. They vaporize and combust with the fuel. Cat/combustion temp should be hot enough to burn off any additive.
My dad's 200k mile POS just passed RI's chassis dyno emissions test.
My beater, which has only 180k miles, also had no problem passing.
My summer car, oil injection bypassed, runs 128:1 2 stroke with the gas and has no problems passing the emissions test. But, it only has 100k miles.
My 02 sensors get replaced every 100k miles regardless. The catalytics, in a well running engine, will not have any problems. We are still running all original cats. Makes me wonder why so many have problems passing!
Here's the question for everybody:
Once the additives that are mixed with fuel get vaporized by the FI, does it most likely combust and do nothing? Or, does the additive separate from the fuel and do it thing?
I treat the MMO as an FI cleaner. Never considered it as a UCL. Don't see how any other UCL actual can work. They vaporize and combust with the fuel. Cat/combustion temp should be hot enough to burn off any additive.
MolaKule
Staff member
UnDummy,
That's a good question, and I think we have to differentiate between a top-end cleaner and a valve seat lubricant.
What happens is that the additive decomposes under heat.
The liquid in the mixture is essentially vaporized (assuming the incoming F/A mixture is stoichiometric) and it turns into gasses, which go out the exhaust via the exhaust valve.
Assuming a solvent fuel additive in the fuel:
During incoming F/A air flow, the intake valve is cleaned of carbon by the solvency action
of the mixture. During combusted outflow, the exhaust valve is cleaned by the gasses, so the gasses have to have components promoting carbon solvency.
Now if the fuel additive has a metallic component, such as MMT, the metallic component will deposit itself on the valve seats due to combustion. This thin film will lubricate the seats as a thin film of metal, essentially acting as a bearing. The light oil that is used as carriers for fuel additives does nothing to lubricate the valve seats, since this oil is combusted into gasses. This is why teraethyl lead was good at cushioning the seats against the mechanical pounding and providing a film.
Now too much of a metallic additive can cause plug fouling problems, since these chemicals deposit the film as a thin "ash-type". Use those octane boosters sparingly when adding to your top-end cleaner.
That's a good question, and I think we have to differentiate between a top-end cleaner and a valve seat lubricant.
What happens is that the additive decomposes under heat.
The liquid in the mixture is essentially vaporized (assuming the incoming F/A mixture is stoichiometric) and it turns into gasses, which go out the exhaust via the exhaust valve.
Assuming a solvent fuel additive in the fuel:
During incoming F/A air flow, the intake valve is cleaned of carbon by the solvency action
of the mixture. During combusted outflow, the exhaust valve is cleaned by the gasses, so the gasses have to have components promoting carbon solvency.
Now if the fuel additive has a metallic component, such as MMT, the metallic component will deposit itself on the valve seats due to combustion. This thin film will lubricate the seats as a thin film of metal, essentially acting as a bearing. The light oil that is used as carriers for fuel additives does nothing to lubricate the valve seats, since this oil is combusted into gasses. This is why teraethyl lead was good at cushioning the seats against the mechanical pounding and providing a film.
Now too much of a metallic additive can cause plug fouling problems, since these chemicals deposit the film as a thin "ash-type". Use those octane boosters sparingly when adding to your top-end cleaner.
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